Women have rights. Men have responsabilities.
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You know I’m not sure. I think disposed of.
Who, is the big question. My money is on team Roberts.
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I think whoever it was should be impeached if a justice is found to be in any way behind this leak.
If it was a clerk, they can go work at CNN or write for Salon.
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I think he prefers “McCain #2.”
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Yes.
I’d like to thank everyone for keeping this discussion civil, thoughtful and productive. It is a most contentious issue and, if you’re anything like me, you’ve held more than one position on abortion during your life.
I think our shared interests do a good job of keeping us all grounded in the idea that the people we disagree with have also put their time into the rare pursuit of serious training over the span of years. The best among us have done it much better than I have and maintained the effort for decades.
Political disagreements are really quite easy to deal with compared to a true max effort squat set.
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Such a teen knows what she’s doing when she has consensual sex and almost certainly knows where babies come from.
Now that some shared what they think are admittedly cold stances, I’ll say that whenever the hanger-in-back alley situation comes up, I’m not moved at all, despite being a sensitive guy. And although some people likely are concerned about this, I look at it as yet another form of emotional blackmail pervasive in the current day in most conversations on the topic.
I grew up with plenty of sexually licentious teenagers, including thirteen to fifteen year old “girls”, one of whom would provide fellatio to several boys in a night (until I scolded her on a car ride in which she broke down in tears and never did it again) and another who allowed herself to be a sort of sex toy for a clique of “boys”. They knew what they were doing, and either they pulled the wool over their parents eyes or the parents were total airheads, as are parents who allow their daughters to hang out with unsavory “boys” (in some cases total scumbags) all night on weekends.
And this leads to an interesting dichotomy.
I’m told by modern men:
- that young women have as much agency as men
- that mention of parental oversight in mate choices is antiquated and that “this isn’t India/the Middle East, bro”
- having some mechanisms for restraining sexuality, which can only truly be done on the supply side (young women specifically) is also antiquated and “like the Middle East”
Yet at the same time I’m also told by some of these same people that we should have abortion and other services provided, in some cases by the government, for some, maybe even many, women’s poor sexual choices.
Anyone else notice this incongruence?
Even though sex is now viewed as a bunch of fun and games (I’m guilty of this in the past too), one of the most important decisions a young woman is going to make is who she lets get on top of her.
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Interesting.
I’ve got no problem with abortion laws being turned over to the states, as long as the laws are reasonable. The Mississippi law allows abortions up to 15 weeks which is reasonable. The Texas law allows abortions up to 6 weeks, which isn’t reasonable. At 6 weeks, many women with irregular cycles may not even know they’re pregnant. In both states there are no exceptions made for rape or incest which isn’t reasonable either.
Before anyone says rape doesn’t result in a lot of pregnancies, see this:
32k isn’t a big number in terms of total pregnancies in the USA each year, but it’s still a lot of unwanted pregnancies. Most of us are dudes here so it’s hard to imagine what it’d be like to be raped and impregnated by the rapist, and then forced to carry the baby to term. You can say “well they can still get an abortion in the time period where it’s allowed” which is true. But, in many cases the trauma that’s involved both physically and mentally may make it hard to make big decisions in that time frame. I’d be in favor of extending the time period where abortions are allowed in rape/incest cases to 20-24 weeks.
Incest = rape in most cases I’d assume. If uncle touch gets his 15 year old niece pregnant it’s rape and incest and I’d imagine most pregnancies that are a result of incest are also cases of statutory rape.
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The god of the left is dead. They may have other gods, but their Zeus is dead and if Zeus can be killed their other gods don’t stand a chance… Woohoo!
@KneeDragger_79 We won bro! Let’s celebrate this moment. There is more work to be done. Other gods need to be slayed, still.
Many of you have heard this story before, but I met Jane Roe. She was doing a speaking tour and afterword she was outside by herself having a smoke and I went and joined her. We had a good ol’ time chewing the fat. She was a talker, she told me all kinds of ‘inside baseball’ info including showing me a poem that she wrote as an apology to all the babies killed as a result of her actions in the past. We talked for an hour at least, mainly about her past and how she got to where she was. At this point, she was pro-life, very, very pro-life. She dedicated her life to overturning Roe v. Wade until the day she died. Every year she got more and more intense and serious about reverse Roe v. Wade, until she passed. Her real name is Norma McCorvey…
This one is for you Norma! I know you are smiling down from heaven right now… You did it girl! I am so happy for you and for me and for all of us who fought the good fight.
Do you believe the “deathbed confession”?
It doesn’t matter if I believe the “deathbed confession.” The flesh is weak. But we don’t know their heart.
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Not @Bauber, but I think in regards to privacy in Roe, they interpreted it at the time to privacy of one’s body. That the govt or other’s don’t have rights to one’s person. Personal autonomy.
Would be interesting to hear @Bauber’s opinion on it too.
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@Bauber Thanks for that. Was that deleted by accident?
A “privacy right” large enough to encompass abortion could also be applied to virtually any conduct performed outside the public view, including child abuse, possession of pornography or using illicit drugs. The liberty interest to be protected from state regulation is never really defined in Roe. Instead the Court describes at some length the hardships some women face, not from pregnancy, but from raising children:
“Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by childcare. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it.”
Roe places a pregnant woman’s “constitutional” right of privacy to decide whether or not to abort her child either “in the Fourteenth Amendment’s concept of personal liberty …, as we feel it is, or in the Ninth Amendment’s reservation of rights to the people.”
The Fourteenth Amendment was not intended to create any new rights. The Court goes on to make many rhetorical argument devices from other amendments to mask the absence of constitutional grounding.
The decision ion Roe actually relied on history, medicine, and the philosophy/theology/sociology of abortion, but not the Constitution. This is my major issue with it.
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I wasn’t done lol and hit the wrong key.
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They attempt to root the right in privacy by comparing it to marriage rights and the right to procreation. Certainly marriage, and building and raising a family are fundamental aspects of human life that predate human laws and nations. They are implicit in the concept of liberty and the pursuit of happiness, though even these rights are subject to state limitation, such as laws against bigamy, incest, and child abuse and neglect.
But, to me abortion is not akin to this. Abortion is not child rearing or building - it is child destruction and family killing. The argument from all sides is just very bad. It reads more like an angry manifesto more than a legal opinion.
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