Yes, if you take your testosterone too high you can eventually wind up with side effects. Everyone knows this. I just don’t understand why everything is blamed on estradiol instead of the actual fact that they are taking too much testosterone! I’ve tried taking higher doses of testosterone several times and it doesn’t agree with me whatsoever. Not once did I ever tell myself that I needed to take an AI. In every single case I was intelligent enough to figure out that my dose was simply too high and I needed to lower it. My body doesn’t do well with testosterone levels beyond a given amount. In no way shape or form does it have anything to do with estradiol.
Agreed, but you have a body of people that aren’t interested in health/longevity. They’re after gains/mitigating side effects. At which point the use of ancillaries come in. Whether it mitigates/increases long term risk is inconsequential to these people, rather they would like to use X and not feel like dog shit whilst they do so
I also tend to find higher dosages of testosterone don’t agree with me (i.e above 200mg/wk), HYPOTHETICALLY synthetic compounds however (i.e primobolan or masteron) tend to feel far less “harsh” despite HYPOTHETICALLY screwing up my lipids far more than testosterone ever could.
In theory, if I wanted a boost for any duration of time, testosterone wouldn’t be my first choice. There’s also the autonomic dysfunction/BP alteration (pulse pressure widening too) associated with testosterone that has me believing aside from atherogenic potential testosterone might induce lethal arrhythmia/cardiomyopathy before these synthetics would
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It’s not the use directly. It’s the fact that estradiol is cardioprotective so lowering estradiol lowers the protective benefits. If you are lowering benefits you are causing harm. It’s that simple.
Since you’re here let me ask because this one baffles me. Someone I’m coaching got on trt (for actual legitimate reasons) and his e2, which was very low to begin with, has actually dropped below the range where the ELISA (it’s a shit assay, I know) can read it. He’s <5, which is absurd. No AI. Just test and hcg. What kind of metabolic pathways exist to cause that outcome?
I like you, so don’t flame me!
I wouldn’t consider the 50’s high. I feel fine at 45. Still I feel it’s subjective to each. Is 50 high, is 100 high, is 500 high? We can generalize, but there will always be one-offs.
The thing with this board, is if someone makes a general statement, other will find the outliers.
It would be easier to hear if the statement was most men will not need an AI.
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It’s not though.
Other factors come in, endothelial dysfunction (E2 is protective here), glucose/lipid metabolism (E2 is protective)… But then there’s beta adrenergic receptor upregulation/compound dependent excess sympathomimetic stimulation, BP alteration, compound dependent 20-HETE generation/11b-HSD inhibition, site specific AR selectivity, oxidative stress (E2 can mitigate in physiologic concentrations).
Then we have the notion excess E2 can offset neurological homeostasis (as can excess androgen index), induce unfavorable fluid retention leading to hypertension and subsequently LVH and more. It isn’t black and white, there are a myriad of factors.
It’s like me saying, I follow an impeccable diet and exercise all the time, but I take coke three times a week. Great, you’re reducing harm… But it’s still bad for you. (Edit: I don’t use cocaine and never have because the pharmacokinetics of the substance is fucking terrifying… And from anecdotal observation it seems to turn people into bellends).
Estradiol is cardio protective up to a point, there’s no data stating high E2 is cardio protective, postmarketing reports for estradiol (medications) would appear to indicate the opposite.
I like you, so I’m going to agree to disagree on some things here, but agree with the rest. I don’t feel like getting into an argument. Have a fantastic day (my birthday is tommorow so say happy birthday 
)… No longer a teenager, can’t say I’ll miss my teenage years…
Gotta get ready for work my dudes. Ttyl
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Isn’t your birthday on Wednesday? It is Monday here, so you will have to wait two days.
I forgot you guys live in the past…
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Happy birthday man!!
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Clearly has an aromatase deficiency. I’ve seen it a few times and exogenous estradiol would benefit him. You’d need a doc that knows how to do this properly in men (I know a few). But, I can’t say I’ve seen a man with low E2 get even lower once he started TRT. Technically, there’s a portion that’s aromatized in the testicles so maybe that’s all he was making and once his testicles got shut down after trt his levels plummeted even more. Not saying it’s that but I guess it’s possible. Where is this guy located?
What is? I have heard Gil T and Jordan Grant talk about high estradiol can increase other hormones like prolactin and other possible (adrenal) hormones affected by high estradiol.
Give me something else to blame other than estradiol.
He’s near me. The clinic he’s working with has prescribed estrogen and they’re seeing if that helps. He found a good doctor who seems like he knows what he’s doing.
For some guys I think E2 is a problem. But treating it as an unassailable evil is tremendously unhelpful for the wider trt community. Something that is neuroprotective and cardioprotective should probably be allowed to run higher than usual, especially in men whose testosterone is higher than usual. That doesn’t mean let it run wild and cause tons of side effects, but it does mean treating it like what it is: a pretty useful hormone.
Problem is, how do you test an intercrine/paracrine hormone? It isn’t endocrine in men. Serum levels become irrelevant. A serum test provides literally zero information regarding tissue action. It’s literally one of the most useless serum tests a man can do.
Estradiol is the thing you blame when you are too lazy to figure out the actual answer. Blame estradiol all you want and end it there, by all means. There is something wrong with your protocol. End of story. That’s always the answer every single time.
Hey I really wanted to reach out to certain members on here and ask to point me in the rite direction of doctors they have had experience with and that they know for a fact are well knowledged. I had dr Crisler, Dr. Saya and Dr Mark Gordon and none of them have been able to help me get dialed in and I’ve been at this crap for 3 years is there a Dr that you guys know that definitely knows his stuff ??
Where are you located?
Maryland but I would be willing todo Tele visits I just need to finally get a doc that can truly help me
If you’re on Trestolone, your E2 would also be near zero as Trest isn’t converted to E2
It is one of the most estrogenic AAS in existence. I don’t know where you got the impression that it isn’t but you’ve been misinformed.
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