Is This Billboard Offenisve?

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181

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
The problem is that you need an entire separate system to accommodate female firefighters (different sized equipment, separate changing facilities) and then you have to deal with the different group dynamics that arise when you add a woman.
[/quote]
What different sized equipment is required?
[/quote]

Bras

[/quote]
I’m asking this tongue-in-cheek as I work for a fire department and know that no equipment is specifically sized for females other than bunker gear, which is sized to the individual regardless of gender.[/quote]

You ever run across anyone that makes you want to leave them in a burning building to die? Or are you willing to put your life on the line for anyone?[/quote]
I’m not a responder. I work in administration. It’s unlikely I could pass the physical tests to be a career firefighter. But I know a number of women who are great assets to the profession. The other point that wasn’t touched on is that very few calls actually require mass feats of strength. Most calls are medical and do not involve structure/wildland fire or serious rescue. Medical calls usually only require the strength to help lift a stretcher into an ambulance. Also, 70% of firefighters are volunteers that cover rural areas. Trust me when I say you are glad to have the hands to help, whether male or female.[/quote]
I would only add that with our society now going to the supersized variety that just picking up medical patients has changed a bit. [/quote]
Sadly, you have a valid point.

182

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
The problem is that you need an entire separate system to accommodate female firefighters (different sized equipment, separate changing facilities) and then you have to deal with the different group dynamics that arise when you add a woman.
[/quote]
What different sized equipment is required?
[/quote]

Bras

[/quote]
I’m asking this tongue-in-cheek as I work for a fire department and know that no equipment is specifically sized for females other than bunker gear, which is sized to the individual regardless of gender.[/quote]

You ever run across anyone that makes you want to leave them in a burning building to die? Or are you willing to put your life on the line for anyone?[/quote]
I doubt it enters responders’ minds. They are doing a job. And I believe most get a real rush from it. Patients/rescuees are often a royal pain in the ass. I hear about it after the fact.

183

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Correct. By my view it’s appropriate to say “Rare is the woman strong enough to carry out the duties of a firefighter without risk to self or others, but those women who can should not be disadvantaged by being female.”
[/quote]

The problem is that you need an entire separate system to accommodate female firefighters (different sized equipment, separate changing facilities) and then you have to deal with the different group dynamics that arise when you add a woman. All that for the one in a thousand woman who can actually be a firefighter. It simply doesn’t make sense.

[/quote]

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

184

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Doing it because it makes HER feel good about HERSELF? Eh… I can’t really knock someone. Doing it because it makes her feel like she fits in better with what is expected of her? That’s when it starts to be an issue.
[/quote]
I don’t buy that women get implants to feel good about themselves in a direct sense. Perhaps larger breasts make women feel better about themselves because it pleases their boyfriend/spouse, which results in positive feedback/attention for them. Or because it helps them win the figure contest. Or because it makes them feel valued because of all the attention they receive out in public. I truly believe the motivation is external. Just like it is to wear makeup and high heels. How many women doll up when they’re not going to encounter anyone all day? I’d venture it’s zero.
[/quote]

Late to the thread, but I know a couple women. I’m assuming lying on the couch all day watching netflix isn’t what you’re talking about though, because nobody male or female would get dressed up for that. But if by not “encountering” anybody you mean just running errands under the headphones or something mundane but practical, yes I do know some strong women who will on occasion dress up to do that sort of thing.[/quote]

How do you run errands without encountering anyone? It’s not if you don’t meet anyone you know. It’s not meeting anyone period. Yes, no one gets dressed up if they aren’t going to see another living human being. That’s the point. The claim that women wear makeup for themselves is ridiculous.

Maybe they wear makeup because knowing that they look good makes them feel better about themselves, but that’s just internalizing external judgments. [/quote]

I’m inclined to agree. I also question what we mean by “dressed up.” kpsnap mentioned makeup and high heels in her post, which morphed to light makeup somewhere along the way - I would question the motivation of a woman looking like she’s out to the night club to hit the grocery store. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but purely internal motives? No.

And again, I think Bean’s wife is probably wearing the makeup at home for her family, not for her own intrinsic reward (unless that reward is to be appealing for her family). Certainly that’s the case for me. Alone, no makeup. Seeing my loved ones - light makeup. Night club - slightly more makeup and possibly heels, still for the benefit of my romantic partner (and hence me, because I want him to be proud of me and his pride is my pleasure).

185

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Correct. By my view it’s appropriate to say “Rare is the woman strong enough to carry out the duties of a firefighter without risk to self or others, but those women who can should not be disadvantaged by being female.”
[/quote]

The problem is that you need an entire separate system to accommodate female firefighters (different sized equipment, separate changing facilities) and then you have to deal with the different group dynamics that arise when you add a woman. All that for the one in a thousand woman who can actually be a firefighter. It simply doesn’t make sense.

[/quote]

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]
Well, men have always been teachers. Most teachers of young children are women, but that doesn’t really seem to be changing nor do I see a need or movement to change it. Teachers also don’t spend extended shifts together, wear protective equipment, have communal showers, or have a tight team structure. Thus, there is no need to be much concerned about the gender of teachers.

As far as nurses, it really depends on the type of nurse (I use the term nurse somewhat loosely as it refers to various levels of training and duties). It makes more sense for a psychiatric or geriatric nurse to be a man since there is a more significant physical component to those jobs.

My wife has had two children (2010 and 2014) and in both cases I saw no male nurses. In fact, the only men I saw working in the delivery or maternity wards were anesthesiologists. I would venture to guess that these areas actually have fewer men working in them than they did 50 years (although the number of female nurses is probably about the same).

Really, I have no problem with this as it makes a lot of sense. There is an interesting dynamic as I think most women are more uncomfortable with male nurses nurses than the reverse.

187

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
his pride is my pleasure.
[/quote]

Flip that around and believe both and you have basically described the perfect woman ha

189

http://news10.com/2015/03/24/local-students-protest-sexist-billboard/

New and improved billboard!

190

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.

191

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
his pride is my pleasure.
[/quote]

Flip that around and believe both and you have basically described the perfect woman ha[/quote]

Flip it in any direction and say it of women or men and your comment holds equally true, doesn’t it?

192

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.[/quote]

And sometimes you realize that you were heading down a dead end street and that all your efforts were wasted.

193

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I own and operate a specialty construction company that does unique work and involves intense physical labor. It easily qualifies to be on Mike Rowe’s “Dirtiest Jobs” TV show.

I have had several females work for me over the years including my GF, daughter and foreman’s wife. Each of the three of them is an outstanding laborer in almost every sense of the word and I’m proud to have them on my crew. They are effortless to manage and believe it or not bring little to no drama to the job site as compared with some of the men who’ve worked for me. Each of them is in superb physical shape and do well at endurance work.

However, they always have to fill supplementary roles – assisting my main core of male employees. They simply do not have the strength and stamina to get the basic job done from start to finish. In other words, I could never send them off by themselves to perform what we do.[/quote]

Personally, my feminism is satisfied with this. I believe in equality of opportunity and don’t feel anyone should be promised equality of outcome.

194

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.[/quote]

And sometimes you realize that you were heading down a dead end street and that all your efforts were wasted.[/quote]

NOPE.

195

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.[/quote]

And sometimes you realize that you were heading down a dead end street and that all your efforts were wasted.[/quote]

NOPE.[/quote]

So, whatever road you take is automatically the right one?

You are truly gifted.

196

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.[/quote]

And sometimes you realize that you were heading down a dead end street and that all your efforts were wasted.[/quote]

NOPE.[/quote]

So, whatever road you take is automatically the right one?

You are truly gifted. [/quote]

Are we talking in generalities or are we discussing this specific road (men and women crossing into one another’s realms, change stressful)?

You’ll need to be clearer in order for me to respond to your second question. For the first I assumed that you were referring to the exchange quoted above. But perhaps not, in which case my response may differ.

197

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.[/quote]

And sometimes you realize that you were heading down a dead end street and that all your efforts were wasted.[/quote]

NOPE.[/quote]

So, whatever road you take is automatically the right one?

You are truly gifted. [/quote]

Are we talking in generalities or are we discussing this specific road (men and women crossing into one another’s realms, change stressful)?

You’ll need to be clearer in order for me to respond to your second question. For the first I assumed that you were referring to the exchange quoted above. But perhaps not, in which case my response may differ. [/quote]

So explain to me why having more male maternity nurses is going to lead to meaningful positive outcomes.

198

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
his pride is my pleasure.
[/quote]

Flip that around and believe both and you have basically described the perfect woman ha[/quote]

Flip it in any direction and say it of women or men and your comment holds equally true, doesn’t it?[/quote]

This is true, makes for a great marriage when you take pride in the others pleasure and their pride in you is a source of pleasure for you. Covers all the bases.

199

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

This is true to a degree, but sometimes you have to take the long view. Men and women are increasingly crossing over into the other side’s realms, and with very good results. Would you have said the same of nursing or teaching 20 years ago, that men would just disrupt an established dynamic?

[/quote]

Em, seriously. You don’t see the distinctions between firefighting and nursing/teaching?
[/quote]

Of course I do. What’s your point? Mine is that change can be stressful but the stress doesn’t last forever, though the change may.[/quote]

And sometimes you realize that you were heading down a dead end street and that all your efforts were wasted.[/quote]

NOPE.[/quote]

So, whatever road you take is automatically the right one?

You are truly gifted. [/quote]

Are we talking in generalities or are we discussing this specific road (men and women crossing into one another’s realms, change stressful)?

You’ll need to be clearer in order for me to respond to your second question. For the first I assumed that you were referring to the exchange quoted above. But perhaps not, in which case my response may differ. [/quote]

So explain to me why having more male maternity nurses is going to lead to meaningful positive outcomes.[/quote]

I don’t have any investment in male maternity nurses, so I have no particular thoughts about the matter of their impact. I simply state that as the gender lines increasingly blur, adaptations occur that are initially stressful and unwanted. Eventually things settle into a new normal. Isreal has a co-ed military and everyone survives, you know? Of course we could pick apart women in combat and conservatives’ feeling that they should not be singing because in Jewish tradition women aren’t allowed and blah blah detail, but my point was general, not specific.

However: male maternity nurses may have a tremendous positive impact on fathers who would not otherwise have encountered a male model of infant care or nurturing. “Oh look, big hands DON’T endanger the tiny creature I love but am afraid of.”

Okay?

200

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
his pride is my pleasure.
[/quote]

Flip that around and believe both and you have basically described the perfect woman ha[/quote]

Flip it in any direction and say it of women or men and your comment holds equally true, doesn’t it?[/quote]

This is true, makes for a great marriage when you take pride in the others pleasure and their pride in you is a source of pleasure for you. Covers all the bases.[/quote]

Yes, and then “happily ever after.” I’m hoping for just that. I run across it sometimes, and it’s definitely what I’m chasing.