Wait, is someone arguing you can’t live on soda and Airheads?
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
And don’t forget about the vitamins used in the electron transport chain, either.[/quote]
I am sure i am not doing a good job representing her argument in small segments. I have the chapter in front of me, i can post the whole thing if your interested (She also talks about Dr. Lustig and fructose)
The chapter discusses the pitfalls of basing ones diet on starchy foods as recommended by American, British and Australian food agencies. [/quote]
Well, if you find something you feel would be pertinent, feel free to post it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t want to trouble you with that.
Does she discuss the way nutrient fortification/enrichment impacts this vitamin “leeching” that occurs with eating too many carbs? Or is it more an argument against living on nothing but soda and Airheads?[/quote]
So, carbohydrate metabolism starts with glycolysis, a process which releases energy from glucose (or glycogen) to form two molecules of pyruvate. Pyruvate/pyruvic acid is the pivot between glycolysis and the Krebs cycle. If oxygen is not available (the body is in a state of anaerobic respiration), pyruvate is converted to ethanol or lactate and energy can be produced for a limited period of time with lactic acid being an unpleasant side effect. If oxygen is available, the two molecules of pyruvate enter the Krebs cycle. The first step in the process is the conversion of pyruvate into a form that can enter the citric acid cycle. For this to happen, pyruvate loses one carbon, as carbon dioxide, to form acetyl coenzyme A (Acetyl-CoA being the start of the cholesterol production process). Acetyl-CoA is effectively an activated form of acetic acid (vinegar). It is Acetyl-CoA that enters the citric acid cycle. This reaction is irreversible and requires B vitamins for the conversion process (vitamin B2 is needed for FAD(H) and vitamin B3 for NAD(H) conversion respectively). Just to show the energy generated:
-During Glycolysis, 2 ATPâ??s are used up and 4 are generated along with 2 NADH.
- During the Krebs cycle, 2 NADH are produced from pyruvate to Acetyl CoA, 6 NADH from the Krebs cycle, 2 FADH2 and 2 ATPâ??s.
- The NADH and FADH2 then go on to the electron transport chain and ATP is produced as follows: 3 ATP are produced per NADH and FADH2 results in the production of 2 ATP for each FADH2.
Overall we have: 4 ATP from glycolysis and 4 ATP from NADH in glycolysis; 24 ATP from NADH; 4 ATP from 2 FADH2 and 2 ATP from the rest of the process resulting in 38 ATP â?? net 36 ATP given the 2 ATP used in glycolysis.
The key things to note are:
- Carbohydrate consumption produces Acetyl-CoA in the â??bridgingâ?? stage between the first and second stages of the metabolism process (between Glycolysis and the Krebs cycle); - The conversion from carbohydrates into ATP
â?? energy usable by the body â?? is very efficient and a lot of ATP is made from one molecule of glucose as a result of all the enzyme processes along the way â?? our bodyâ??s spark plugs in effect; - The conversion from carbohydrates into ATP requires B vitamins. Hence the argument that sugar provides energy is not strictly true. The body needs B vitamins from elsewhere to enable sucrose to be converted into usable energy. This is why sugar/sucrose has been called an anti-nutrient, as it depletes the body of vitamins from other food sources in its metabolism.
the original quote I posted comes from this entire segment. Very interested on your thoughts.
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
- The conversion from carbohydrates into ATP requires B vitamins. Hence the argument that sugar provides energy is not strictly true. The body needs B vitamins from elsewhere to enable sucrose to be converted into usable energy. This is why sugar/sucrose has been called an anti-nutrient, as it depletes the body of vitamins from other food sources in its metabolism.
the original quote I posted comes from this entire segment. Very interested on your thoughts.[/quote]
Sorry, but you are mistaken. B vitamins are not consumed; they are merely co-factors for the enzymes that catalyze the reactions.
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
the original quote I posted comes from this entire segment. Very interested on your thoughts.[/quote]
Well, the metabolism aspects sound about right. But then, that information is readily available in any human biochemistry book.
It still doesn’t address the fact that vitamins are essential components of numerous enzymes involved in metabolism… and that sucrose metabolism is not to any extend unique in this requirement. If I remember, I’ll post a list of additional areas of metabolism that require micronutrients to operate properly so you can see just how ubiquitous they are.
There’s no factual evidence presented or physiological theory as to how eating sucrose “depletes” the body of micronutrients gathered from other food sources other than her saying they do. Because, again, these things are typically stored to one degree or another and are highly conserved otherwise – they don’t just magically disappear into nothingness after the reaction is catalyzed.
I’d be surprised if anyone eating even a SEMI-sensible diet shows any degree of B vitamin deficiency as a result of sugar intake. Maybe, as stated, if they were living off of soda/Airheads it would be a concern down the road (because sugar in and of itself doesn’t offer any micronutrient value), but even processed foods are so fortified/enriched nowadays that I have a hard time believing it’s more than just intellectual masturbation for the vast majority of the population.
[quote]OzyNut wrote:
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
- The conversion from carbohydrates into ATP requires B vitamins. Hence the argument that sugar provides energy is not strictly true. The body needs B vitamins from elsewhere to enable sucrose to be converted into usable energy. This is why sugar/sucrose has been called an anti-nutrient, as it depletes the body of vitamins from other food sources in its metabolism.
the original quote I posted comes from this entire segment. Very interested on your thoughts.[/quote]
Sorry, but you are mistaken. B vitamins are not consumed; they are merely co-factors for the enzymes that catalyze the reactions.[/quote]
Yeah, I think the concern is that she is suggesting B vitamins are “sacrificed” to convert sucrose to ATP – i.e., they get destroyed during the enzymatic reactions.
If anyone has evidence that this is the case, I’d very much like to read it. I haven’t heard that one.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]OzyNut wrote:
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
- The conversion from carbohydrates into ATP requires B vitamins. Hence the argument that sugar provides energy is not strictly true. The body needs B vitamins from elsewhere to enable sucrose to be converted into usable energy. This is why sugar/sucrose has been called an anti-nutrient, as it depletes the body of vitamins from other food sources in its metabolism.
the original quote I posted comes from this entire segment. Very interested on your thoughts.[/quote]
Sorry, but you are mistaken. B vitamins are not consumed; they are merely co-factors for the enzymes that catalyze the reactions.[/quote]
Yeah, I think the concern is that she is suggesting B vitamins are “sacrificed” to convert sucrose to ATP – i.e., they get destroyed during the enzymatic reactions.
If anyone has evidence that this is the case, I’d very much like to read it. I haven’t heard that one.[/quote]
found another instance of “vitamin sacrificing”:
In addition to promoting an inadequate intake of vitamins and minerals, the frequent consumption of refined carbohydrates can even deplete the bodyâ??s reserve of some nutrients. For example, the B vitamins naturally found in most grains are required for the energy production that supports our daily activities.120,121,122 Therefore, when sugar or refined carbohydrates are consumed and metabolized for energy production, the B vitamins that are required for this process must be obtained from other sources which can potentially accelerate the progression of a deficiency.
the sources quoted in this paragraph are:
Batifoulier F, Verny MA, Chanliaud E, Remesy C, Demigne C. “Variability of B vitamin concentrations in wheat grain, milling fractions and bread products.” Eurpoean Journal of Agronomy. 2006. 25(2):163-169.
Manore MM. “Effect of physical activity on thiamine, riboflavin, and vitamin B6 requirements.” The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 2000. 72(2):598S-606S.
121. Kobayashi M, Shimizu S. “Nicotinic acid and nicotinamide.” Nippon Rinsho. 1999. 57(10):2211-2217.
Novelli GD, Lipmann F. “The Catalytic Function of Coenzyme A in Citric Acid Synthesis.” The Journal of Biological Chemistry. 1950. 182:213-228.
Slavin JL, Jacobs D, Marquart L. “Grain Processing and Nutrition.” Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition. 2000. 40(4):309-326.
PLaying devils adovocate. I agree with your above posts.
I must have missed the part in my biochem class where coenzymes and mineral cofactors were destroyed or some how lost after a cellular reaction.
Agreed with annonym that i have never seen supporting evidence that the coenyzmes or cofactors are destroyed/used up during the reactions. They may disassociate but they will still be present to be used by another enzyme. Obviously at some point they will be broken down or excreted but not to the point where eating a bit of sucrose or even a lot of sucrose will deplete the body of its B vitamins. (unless of course the diet is completely ridiculous which in that case you run into deficiencies no matter what.
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
PLaying devils adovocate. I agree with your above posts. [/quote]
Well, the sources appear to be references in support of “B vitamins naturally found in most grains are required for the energy production that supports our daily activities”… this isn’t news.
Just looking at the titles of the papers – I’m not going to look them up right now – leads me to believe there isn’t much to them that would support her assertions about B vitamin “depletion” from carbohydrate metabolism.
What that all boils down to, again, is the idea that obtaining a large portion of your calories from “empty” sources will POTENTIALLY lead to micronutrient deficiency. But, if we accept this assertion (and why not? It makes sense) we would then have to acknowledge that this risk would be present for more than just the B vitamins.
If we accept that assertion, the rationale behind it would most likely be because we simply aren’t getting enough micronutrients, not because any one metabolic process is facilitating vitamin “leeching”.
To rephrase: it seems her position is that eating a lot of sugar leads to B vitamin deficiencies because metabolizing sugar requires those vitamins to be incorporated into the metabolic enzymes – though this doesn’t acknowledge the presence of vitamins in non-CHO metabolic pathways. What I think is MORE likely is the idea that eating a lot of sugar could potentially lead to micronutrient deficiencies ACROSS THE BOARD simply because people who eat a metric fuck ton of sugar do so at the expense of more nutritious food… not because there is anything particularly sinister about the way vitamins are utilized in sugar metabolism.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed. We noticed this was a problem years ago and began fortifying the wheat with the vitamins that were removed. However, we have never done the same thing with sugar and for a population that now eats 150 lbs of sugar a year per person, I am sure you all can see where this is a problem. Remember, we as physique athletes are the exception to the dietary rule. A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
True, but the issue then is whether this is a problem inherent to carbohydrate metabolism (as the author is seemingly claiming) or if it has more to do with people eating too many empty calories at the expense of nutritious food.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed… A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
Getting off topic a bit, but this makes sense and might explain why people eating low quality foods continue to be hungry all the time. Their bodies are trying to find some nutrients. The question is, why don’t they start to crave vegetables? Something seems to be faulty in the design, or I suppose all the refined foods have tricked the system.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed… A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
Getting off topic a bit, but this makes sense and might explain why people eating low quality foods continue to be hungry all the time. Their bodies are trying to find some nutrients. The question is, why don’t they start to crave vegetables? Something seems to be faulty in the design, or I suppose all the refined foods have tricked the system.
[/quote]
Speaking from personal experience it is the the sweetness/artificial sweetener that keeps me hungry. It is weird I will eat a meal and be pretty satisfied finish off my diet cherry pepsi and a few minutes later I start craving more food usually carbs/more soda. However if I brush my teeth, use mouthwash or even drink water the feeling goes away almost instantly.
On that note, there has been some study about artificial sweeteners causing you to be more hungry and binge because your taste buds registered sweet, and was sent to the brain, but your body never got the message (actual sweet food) via some kinda feedback loop. Then it looks for it and you start the feeding frenzy…
[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
On that note, there has been some study about artificial sweeteners causing you to be more hungry and binge because your taste buds registered sweet, and was sent to the brain, but your body never got the message (actual sweet food) via some kinda feedback loop. Then it looks for it and you start the feeding frenzy…[/quote]
AFAIK, this is all just a theory right now. Not sure I buy it. Makes sense though, but who knows.
I used to be an obese sugar junky.
I still remember the head aches I got when I went from eating 500-1000g of carbs a day to 40. I actually had sugar withdrawal. Any time I would “fall off the wagon”, I would be immediately re-addicted for 2-3 weeks.
Headaches were worse than caffeine withdrawal head-aches.
Big fan of keeping the carbs down now, though I seem to be able to tolerate 100-200g a lot better after adding some muscle mass.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed. We noticed this was a problem years ago and began fortifying the wheat with the vitamins that were removed. However, we have never done the same thing with sugar and for a population that now eats 150 lbs of sugar a year per person, I am sure you all can see where this is a problem. Remember, we as physique athletes are the exception to the dietary rule. A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
True, but the issue then is whether this is a problem inherent to carbohydrate metabolism (as the author is seemingly claiming) or if it has more to do with people eating too many empty calories at the expense of nutritious food.[/quote]
The issue certainly is not with vitamin leaching. The author forgot that beta-oxidation of fat steps in with glucose oxidation at the level of acetyl-CoA oxidation. Unless the author discovered an unknown event above that level, there is no substantiation to the claims.
Modok is right. It is a big issue, one that has caused Australia to create policies that has forced substantial fortification of bread with numerous vitamins and minerals. Following that, they realised that many alcoholics still developed thiamine deficiency and Wernickeâ??s encephalopathy. Stupidly, they tried to create policies to fortify beer. That didn’t go through though.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
[quote]strangemeadow wrote:
On that note, there has been some study about artificial sweeteners causing you to be more hungry and binge because your taste buds registered sweet, and was sent to the brain, but your body never got the message (actual sweet food) via some kinda feedback loop. Then it looks for it and you start the feeding frenzy…[/quote]
AFAIK, this is all just a theory right now. Not sure I buy it. Makes sense though, but who knows.[/quote]
Could be a sensory-behavioural effect of sugar (sweet-taste) addiction spoken about earlier.
While there is definitely a biological origin to the disregulated eating, it wouldn’t be a stretch to say that sensory information alone could stimulate the seeking behaviour.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed… A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
Getting off topic a bit, but this makes sense and might explain why people eating low quality foods continue to be hungry all the time. Their bodies are trying to find some nutrients. The question is, why don’t they start to crave vegetables? Something seems to be faulty in the design, or I suppose all the refined foods have tricked the system.
[/quote]
This guy’s name is J Stanton, his website is excellent, esp. this piece on satiety, which addresses exactly the issue you just raised.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed… A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
Getting off topic a bit, but this makes sense and might explain why people eating low quality foods continue to be hungry all the time. Their bodies are trying to find some nutrients. The question is, why don’t they start to crave vegetables? Something seems to be faulty in the design, or I suppose all the refined foods have tricked the system.
[/quote]
Speaking from personal experience it is the the sweetness/artificial sweetener that keeps me hungry. It is weird I will eat a meal and be pretty satisfied finish off my diet cherry pepsi and a few minutes later I start craving more food usually carbs/more soda. However if I brush my teeth, use mouthwash or even drink water the feeling goes away almost instantly.[/quote]
I can totally relate to this. I am a diet soda addict. I want it so bad! If I even talk about it, I end up running to the store. It also makes me crave sweets. Snickers, chocolate rice crispies, chocolate syrup, etc. I’ve played two video games where your character drinks a carbonated drink. Every time I played I ended up running to the store (and sometimes I literally mean “running to the store”). A friend of mine ordered a diet soda at dinner yesterday and it was sooooo painful to sit there and watch him drink it… hmmm, gotta run to the store, be right back :\
[quote]Jeffrey of Troy wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
The issue with vitamin deficiency and refined carbohydrate is very well known, and is simply that during the refining process the vitamins are removed… A lot of people these days literally live on root beer, pizza, and skittles. For these individuals, vitamin deficiency is a big, big deal.[/quote]
Getting off topic a bit, but this makes sense and might explain why people eating low quality foods continue to be hungry all the time. Their bodies are trying to find some nutrients. The question is, why don’t they start to crave vegetables? Something seems to be faulty in the design, or I suppose all the refined foods have tricked the system.
[/quote]
This guy’s name is J Stanton, his website is excellent, esp. this piece on satiety, which addresses exactly the issue you just raised.
Cool. I just went back and read most of his seven part series on hunger. Lots of factors at work, but it looks like the main thing here is the body will choose energy density over micronutrients. That makes sense in terms of survival, but it’s not so good since we live with food abundance and most of the low quality foods that are making people so unhealthy fall into that category. Thanks for the link, Jeff.
About diet soda, I stopped my Diet Dr. Pepper habit about 6 weeks ago. No more aspartame or caffeine. It was largely my way to get through the afternoon when my energy flags. I’d also drink it when other people in my family were eating sweets, but I began to be concerned about the effects of all the chemicals. I won’t lie. It was hard to give it up.
I drink diet soda/drinks fairly frequent and I seem to be one of the few whose appetite it doesn’t increase and it doesn’t really give me cravings for anything at all. I seem to cut up and stay lean on it just fine. No side affects at all that I can notice anyway.