Is Iran The Enemy?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
You appear to be confused on the nature of the aggressor here. [/quote]

Sabra and Shatila, 22 years of occupation, a civil war caused by the Palestinians driven out of their homes, and the fresh-memory of a 33-days long attack on your homeland can cause a heckuva lot of confusion.

[quote]Israel has made multiple attempts to occupy parts of Lebanon, and their methods show massive disdain towards the civilian population.

Nonsense [/quote]

It’s not like those actions are documented or anything.

Exactly. Zionists are the nicest people and the region that is now known as Israel was an uninhabited piece of land. The current animosity is solely the fault of the “barbarians” and their inherent anti-Semitism. Thank God that Israel is containing the hordes of terrorists. Otherwise, them Muslims will be coming at us with machetes.

102

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I don’t think you have to worry so much about Pakistan going nuts wrt the ME - their enemy is India.

As opposed to Iran which will destroy the US with sheer willpower?

Pakistan is Al-Qaeda (along with Saudi Arabia). And last I checked, NY was attacked by Al-Qaeda, not the Revolutionary Guards.[/quote]

If Pakistan IS al-qaeda, why the Red Mosque raid? why the arrest of the Taliban leader?

103

[quote]lixy wrote:
can find a recurring theme in the dangers of inspiration. That is precisely the reason the US is extremely antagonistic to Venezuela and might even have been behind the 2002 coup against Chavez. [/quote]

Iran claims it does not want nuclear weapons.

Israel claims it does not possess nukes

The US claims it was not behind the coup against Chavez.

104

[quote]lixy wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
A manufactured fear - Israel isn’t going to nuke a Middle Eastern country unless attacked first, which we know is a distinct possibility.

Doesn’t that statement of the obvious apply to Iran as well (supposing they are looking for nukes)?

Middle Eastern nations don’t sit in a state of fear that mean old Israel has designs on whooping them - and to suggest so is intellectually dishonest.

Go tell that the Southern Lebanese.[/quote]

How can Israel nuke anyone. It claims it does not have nukes…

and Iran claims it does not want them.

105

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
Israel has made multiple attempts to occupy parts of Lebanon, and their methods show massive disdain towards the civilian population.

Israel did not attack Lebanon because it wanted to take over Lebanon.

The reason is because (in the 80’s) the PLO was using the country as a base to launch attacks into Israel. In the last year or so, you could say the same about Hezbollah. Hezbollah said if the Israelis moved out of Lebanon, they would stop their hostilities with them. Israel moved out (as they did in Gaza), and are constantly bombarded by rocket fire.
[/quote]

I addressed this, and asked why if so did they not leave once the PLO were gone, why did it take more than a decade of resistance? Why haven’t they left all of the territory they occupying and why have they not been willing to discuss the return of the prisoners they took?

As for Hezbollah, hostilities have been continuous on both sides.

106

[quote]lixy wrote:

Go tell that the Southern Lebanese.[/quote]

Tell that to the Northen Israels who have rockets fired “on their heads.”

107

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

It won’t be a paper worth reading, rest assured, unless you can be objective in analyzing the subject. From your posts, I suspect you won’t be.[/quote]

Just for kicks, post the paper at the end of the thread so we can rip it to shreds.

108

[quote]will to power wrote:

Oh yes, what you seem to be ignoring is that there is concern for the Arabs being attacked and having our civilians murdered by Israel.[/quote]

If only your heart bled for Israeli citizens being murdered by Arabs. You have shown quite a lot with your post, perhaps unintentionally.

How cute - you worry about thousands of Arab citizens being killed by the remote chance of a nuclear response to an unjustified Arab attack…but no such tears for Israeli citizens, who don’t suffer from the “remote specter” of violence, but rather from real world fears that Arabs won’t to push Israel into the sea.

I am concerned about Arabs being killed too - and hopefully, Arab nations won’t provoke Israel into such a response. If Arabs are worried about that, maybe they should stop giving tacit support for the destruction of Israel. But isn’t it more fun to play victim?

Middle Eastern nations are itching for a window to scratch Israel, always have been - Israel should cling to every advantage it can and never give an inch.

If Arab nations were so worried about a “fair fight”, maybe they should have thought about the naked acts of aggression they conducted against Israel that created this standoff in the first place.

It isn’t Israel’s responsibility to make sure Arab self-esteem is satisfied by making sure each country’s firepower is “proportional” or “an even fight” - Arab nations wanted this standoff, and it is embarrassing to whine that Israel has gotten “too big and bad” for their liking in the contest and should therefore decrease their military capabilities.

Laughable. Arab nations brought a knife to a gun fight - can’t whine about it now.

109

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

It’s also a step for developing their own civil nuclear energy. Your argument is like saying that university chemistry and biology departments should be banned because they are “an early step in developing” weapons of mass destruction.

Completely false, because you fail to assign any value to who is using the science. Nuclear power in Western societies - and their respective university departments - are subject to democracy, civic audit, the rule of law, liberal government, a civilian-controlled military, and criticism.

Iran - not at all. The risk is too steep to give blossoming totalitarian regimes nuclear power, even if they bat their cow-eyes at us while clasping their hands and pleading “honest, it’s just to help keep the lights on down at the Jewish orphanage”.

Don’t treat unlike countries in a like manner. There aren’t “equal rights” among nations, and there never have been.[/quote]

Whoever spoke of “unlike countries”? I said that if you want to go after their uranium enrichment, might as well shut down Tehran’s university.

Ditch the hootch, old man.

110

[quote]lixy wrote:

Exactly. Zionists are the nicest people and the region that is now known as Israel was an uninhabited piece of land. The current animosity is solely the fault of the “barbarians” and their inherent anti-Semitism. Thank God that Israel is containing the hordes of terrorists. Otherwise, them Muslims will be coming at us with machetes.[/quote]

Ha, other than what is written in the Bible, the Jews have no history of invading anyone. How many countries did the Jews conquer and convert to Judasm?

How many did the Muslims - (to Islam, of course)?

111

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
will to power wrote:

Oh yes, what you seem to be ignoring is that there is concern for the Arabs being attacked and having our civilians murdered by Israel.

If only your heart bled for Israeli citizens being murdered by Arabs. You have shown quite a lot with your post, perhaps unintentionally.

How cute - you worry about thousands of Arab citizens being killed by the remote chance of a nuclear response to an unjustified Arab attack…but no such tears for Israeli citizens, who don’t suffer from the “remote specter” of violence, but rather from real world fears that Arabs won’t to push Israel into the sea.

I am concerned about Arabs being killed too - and hopefully, Arab nations won’t provoke Israel into such a response. If Arabs are worried about that, maybe they should stop giving tacit support for the destruction of Israel. But isn’t it more fun to play victim?
[/quote]

More telling is that you ignore the context of my statement with the rest of what I have said. I consider the threat of a nuclear attack by any side against any side to be worse than a convention attack. And no, I don’t want Arab nations provoking Israel through war either. However, Israeli lives are not more important to me than Arabs, though the opposite seem to be the case for you.

And you say ‘thousands’ of Arabs would be killed, as if it would not be at least hundreds of thousands, possibly millions.

[quote]
There country is plenty capable of defending itself in conventional warfare, however the rest of the region has little deterrent against this very aggressive regime.

Middle Eastern nations are itching for a window to scratch Israel, always have been - Israel should cling to every advantage it can and never give an inch.

If Arab nations were so worried about a “fair fight”, maybe they should have thought about the naked acts of aggression they conducted against Israel that created this standoff in the first place.

It isn’t Israel’s responsibility to make sure Arab self-esteem is satisfied by making sure each country’s firepower is “proportional” or “an even fight” - Arab nations wanted this standoff, and it is embarrassing to whine that Israel has gotten “too big and bad” for their liking in the contest and should therefore decrease their military capabilities.

Laughable. Arab nations brought a knife to a gun fight - can’t whine about it now.[/quote]

Today the countries that waged war on Israel are all attempting to reach a total peace agreement, and all stopped initiating hostilities since that time. You’re stuck in 1948, and you prefer it that way because it’s clear you just want to perceive Arabs as barbarians and Israelis as the poor victims in every situation.

112

[quote]lixy wrote:

Ditch the hootch, old man.[/quote]

This makes no sense - what make you think I am old?

Well, I am old enough not to be living off my dad’s trust fund - maybe that is why you are confused.

113

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Ditch the hootch, old man.

This makes no sense - what make you think I am old?

Well, I am old enough not to be living off my dad’s trust fund - maybe that is why you are confused.

[/quote]

maybe he thinks your avatar is you.

114

[quote]will to power wrote:
Today the countries that waged war on Israel are all attempting to reach a total peace agreement, and all stopped initiating hostilities since that time. You’re stuck in 1948, and you prefer it that way because it’s clear you just want to perceive Arabs as barbarians and Israelis as the poor victims in every situation.[/quote]

The Arab states had a chance to reach a total peace agreement with Israel back in 1948 and chose war.

115

[quote]will to power wrote:

More telling is that you ignore the context of my statement with the rest of what I have said. I consider the threat of a nuclear attack by any side against any side to be worse than a convention attack. And no, I don’t want Arab nations provoking Israel through war either. However, Israeli lives are not more important to me than Arabs, though the opposite seem to be the case for you.

And you say ‘thousands’ of Arabs would be killed, as if it would not be at least hundreds of thousands, possibly millions.[/quote]

I don’t have a preference for lives, I have a preference for peace. And tolerance. But I am a Western liberal, and I am picky like that.

My point is this - Israeli nuclear power saves more lives than it threatens. If Israel doesn’t have nuclear power, we’d see more conventional attacks, more attempts at intimidation.

Overwhelming force projection saves lives - all lives, regardless of whether they are Israeli or Arabs.

That, of course, is a killing joke - if Arab nations were so interested in peace, they’d do something substantial about the terror groups. They don’t - it’s lip service.

And let’s see - why would I treat a barbarian nation that indulges in theocracy, tribalism, gender apartheid, irrationalism, illiberalism, and fascism the same as a Western liberal democracy?

Sorry - if it is relativism you want, you came to the wrong place. Israelis are far from perfect, and when they are wrong, I am happy to condemn them - but be honest about the reality of who the aggressors are and who would be fine with a live and let live attitude among the nations in the Middle East.

116

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
Today the countries that waged war on Israel are all attempting to reach a total peace agreement, and all stopped initiating hostilities since that time. You’re stuck in 1948, and you prefer it that way because it’s clear you just want to perceive Arabs as barbarians and Israelis as the poor victims in every situation.

The Arab states had a chance to reach a total peace agreement with Israel back in 1948 and chose war.[/quote]

Which is too bad, but times have changed, and different people are in charge now, not to mention a different generation.

117

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
If Pakistan IS al-qaeda, why the Red Mosque raid? why the arrest of the Taliban leader? [/quote]

What’s that gotta do with al-Qaeda?

Anyway, the EU gives a shitload of money to Morocco each year to help the get rid of hashish culture.

Every once in a while, the cops round up a few tons, burn them live on TV to make sure the money keeps flowing.

Of course, the Red Mosque crew was regularly harrassing residents of Islamabad, shooting and killing policemen, etc…

118

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

maybe he thinks your avatar is you.[/quote]

I guess that is fair, because I think Lixy’s avatar of a 10 year old pouting while trying to look tough is him.

Makes sense, Gkhan.

119

[quote]will to power wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
Today the countries that waged war on Israel are all attempting to reach a total peace agreement, and all stopped initiating hostilities since that time. You’re stuck in 1948, and you prefer it that way because it’s clear you just want to perceive Arabs as barbarians and Israelis as the poor victims in every situation.

The Arab states had a chance to reach a total peace agreement with Israel back in 1948 and chose war.

Which is too bad, but times have changed, and different people are in charge now, not to mention a different generation.[/quote]

The problem is: extremism on either side. When a Muslim wants to make peace with Israel, he is killed. Look at Sadat. When an Israeli wants to make peace with the Muslims, he is killed. See Rabin.

120

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
will to power wrote:
Today the countries that waged war on Israel are all attempting to reach a total peace agreement, and all stopped initiating hostilities since that time. You’re stuck in 1948, and you prefer it that way because it’s clear you just want to perceive Arabs as barbarians and Israelis as the poor victims in every situation.

The Arab states had a chance to reach a total peace agreement with Israel back in 1948 and chose war.

Which is too bad, but times have changed, and different people are in charge now, not to mention a different generation.

The problem is: extremism on either side. When a Muslim wants to make peace with Israel, he is killed. Look at Sadat. When an Israeli wants to make peace with the Muslims, he is killed. See Rabin.

[/quote]

I agree with this, though I’m watching the Arab Peace Initiative right now and just hoping, really hoping it moves forward.