Yes. Guns are a necessisity
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Then buy a gun if you want.
People are misconstruing my opinion here
I didnāt say people shouldnāt be allowed to own a firearm. I just happen to think within many areas around the globe gun ownership within the civilian populace isnāt important
Whereas in other legitimately dangerous countries (i.e South Africa) it should be at the top of your agenda
The difference is in saying āOkay, youāre allowed to have the ability to stop the bloodflow to a personās brain or knock them unconscious so their head bounces off the curb, but weāre trusting you to only apply that skill responsibly.ā
About two-thirds, as per the statistics I linked. Just a run of bad luck for those other 10,000 girls.
Disagree. But thatās a discussion for the Tactical Life thread.
I think Iām mostly having trouble seeing how you coincide these two beliefs. Nobody ought to have one if they live in a safe neighborhood, but some people can have one as long as theyāre going to use it safely?
I rebuke your rebuke-al by pointing out a comparable one-off case where an armed Australian civilian wouldāve been able to protect themselves and others.
But itās Friday afternoon now, so, for sanityās sake, I gotta get outta here.
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I used to share your view. Becoming a felony assault victim completely changed my ideas about the importance of being able to protect yourself.
Iād recommend John Lottās book More Guns, Less Crime. Iād also recommend reading the rebuttals. Low estimates of crimes prevented by guns run in the low hundreds of thousands in the USA. Higher estimates run in the millions.
Iād also encourage you to examine violent crime rates both before and after the passage of landmark firearms laws around the world, and compare against general worldwide trends and trends in the USA at the same time.
Start with AUS, and let me know how effective you think gun control has been in your country.
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Not ānobody ought to have oneā, itās that you donāt explicitly require one.
Buy a firearmā¦ Donāt buy a firearmā¦ In many areas the outcome is statistically highly, highly unlikely to differ. Iāve yet to see concrete data (Iām assuming there is none) but Iād put my bets on a suicides/homicides by firearm being more common comparative to how often theyāre used in self defence by CIVILIANS in countries like Aus. I could be wrong.
In Australia following the Port Arthur massacre o believe there was an initial reduction in gun homicide/suicide ratesā¦ Then homicide rates eventually shot up back to where they were previously.
The media doesnāt really talk about it, presumably because itās bad to publically showcase a policy failure but the ban has more/less made no difference in rates of gun ownership (licit and illicit), gun homicide rates. I do believe there was a reduction in suicide rates, could be wrong though and I wouldnāt be surprised if suicide rates shot up following our endless lockdowns.
This is why Iām relatively indifferent about the issue of ownership provided we talk responsible ownership. Curtailing/putting immense barriers behind the concept of applying for a gun license appears to have done little to change things.
Type in āAustralia shootingā and youāll note gang related violence (and statistics) isnāt exactly uncommon. Thankfully said firearm related violence is typically confined to that of underworld figures.
Please donāt put words in my mouth. Iād never talk about a horrendous, barbaric crime like rape in such a callous manner. Not bad luck, though situational awareness plays into situations for both men and women.
Itās never anyoneās fault they get raped, stabbed, assaulted etc. The individual with the intent to commit such a crime shouldnāt have been on the streets to begin with. That being said, being aware of oneās surroundings can make a HUGE difference as to whether you leave battered or unscathed.
āDonāt give a shady drug dealer you donāt know your address and incite them into your homeā - should be common sense should it not? Apparently not, this happened to two people I was at one point acquainted with.
āDonāt go out and get blind without a companion, as a matter of fact donāt do this at a public venue to begin withā¦ Itās a nuisance for everyone!ā
Also seems like common sense. Yet plenty of guys do exactly this and end up getting beaten up because theyāve made a fool of themselves or ādrunk courageā enabled them to start a fight. Plenty of girls do this and fall prey to fucking creeps who ought to be (pardon my language here) chemically castrated for their deviant behaviour. Itās unfortunate, but thatās the way it is.
Itā¦ Happensā¦ Far too often. Iām not victim blaming, this isnāt the victims fault whatsoever, though Iām stating there are obvious strategies to dramatically mitigate risk that donāt involve hurting anyone. Itās very easy to avoid pounding twenty shots of tequila at the bar-front when youāve been accidentally separated from your group
Then there are the cases wherein situational awareness etc doesnāt matter. Shit happens. For reasons like this I WISH Australia would let people carry pepper spray, tasers etcā¦ But we are king of the nanny states so it aināt happening.
Iāve seen men and women alike drink themselves blind in unknown environments without companions at hand. Is it their fault if something bad happens to them? Iām going to border on no, but state from what Iāve seen more people need to apply common sense as some vulnerable/dangerous situations can be easily avoided.
Iām stealing that.
Btw, didnāt that āpinned downā thing happen to Zimmerman? I think we all know what happened after that.
Still not getting into any gun debate.
I rebuke your rebukal with another rebuttal that rebukes all rebukes in theā¦ Lost my train of thought
I donāt like Australiaās gun lawsā¦ I think theyāre ridiculous, illogical and overtly paternalistic. Iām more for a frame work as can be seen in Isreal, certain Nordic countries, New Zealand etc. Itās an in between with USA being on one extreme and Aus being on the other (note Isreal allows concealed carry, Iām not opposed to concealed carry so long as the individual seriously knows how to operate a firearm).
Iād feel more secure knowing there were people like @marine77 or my father carrying a gun. He was a marine, my father was also in the army. They know guns through and through and marine77 almost certainly wouldnāt hesitate to use one if he had to provided the situation requires lethal force.
Some random civilian on the other handā¦ Iām just not convinced itās a good idea. Thinking about South Africa, if push comes to shove a large majority who carry but donāt know how to use said firearm properly will probably have it taken off them and used against them.
You canāt just take a quick course and be competent either. Combat training/conditioning takes a lot of time
To summarise, depending on the locationā¦ Noā¦ I donāt believe civilian firearm ownership is a necessity.
Oh as an American you shouldnāt dare talk about gun control to an Australian with that tone. They take great offence and will go on a massive tirade about shooting sprees in the States.
As if the two are equivalent.
It never ceases to amaze me how they often find it incomprehensible that a country 10,000 miles apart with 13 times the population and a totally different culture canāt simply adopt the same/similar legislation and have the same outcome.
There are shootings all the time in Sydney.
Having said that. The roughest areas of Australia pale in comparison to the parts of Baltimore that I dared venture into during my naive youth.
I think the lack of gun violence in Australia may have more to do with less disparity between the social classes. And just way less people in general.
There are no āviolent free locations anywhereā. You happen to live in a country that denies you the basic right of self defense and worships its gun restrictions more than its citizens. If you agree with that, fine, but, I will never allow any government mine or yours to deny me the right of combating violence.
Anyone who tries to restrict your legally owned firearms is not trying to make America safer. The point is to disarm you and strip you of your autonomy, your power, your right to self-defense. Gun control is not about guns. Gun control is about who controls America. Is it the population, as in a democracy, or does all control go to a small group of authoritarians, as in an oligarchy? Those are the stakes in the gun control debate. Itās not about guns, itās about who runs the country.
If you donāt think this statement has merit, just examine the current administration.
Take the time to read this article. I know the man who wrote it and he knows what he is doing. Pay attention to the bizarre and inaccurate statements made by Biden.
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WHAT
Iāve said time and time again I DONāT agree with Australiaās stance. I think given the data available regarding homicide rates, rates of illicit ownership etc itās been a policy failure. I used to think otherwise, but after conducting a lengthy amount of research Iāve come to the realisation any SLIGHT and non statistically significant reduction in gun deaths (rates are right around what they were aside from suicides if I recall correctly) since Port Arthur doesnāt justify the demonization/marginalisation of the otherwise law abiding gun owning demographic.
Just because I donāt believe everyone ought to own a gun (like violent felons, the mentally ill/severely depressed etc) doesnāt equate to me being some type of tyrant, I wish people would stop jumping to these āI guess you donāt like freedomā attacks.
I could do the same for those who think one shouldnāt have a right to bodily autonomy
Read above
In the rougher suburbs yes. Arguably also fairly common in bad areas in Melbourne/SA.
I donāt want to restrict YOU from owning a firearm, I want to stop the wrong people obtaining firearms. Last year due to severe, intractable depression I was admitted to a special farm for defective animals (if you get my jist).
Wouldnāt it have been great had I had easy access to a loaded pistol?
Also culture/our risk averse and safety obsessed nature, the TYPES of guns owned (less handguns) and perhaps our societal stance towards mental health. Though I met a bipolar guy who had a gun license soā¦
I tend to believe the media doesnāt report on these shootings all that much as perhaps (conspiracy theory here) the govt doesnāt want the public to note the regime has been a policy failure.
Though handguns were never easy to get here. Even before the Port Arthur massacre. Granted the laws behind them werenāt quite as dumb and convoluted as they are now
If America was the best democracy in the world due to their lax stance on gun control theyād be ranked higher on the democracy index. Yet theyāve been categorised as a flawed democracy since Trump came in. Plenty of countries have self defence lawsā¦ I believe even one state in Australia has a āstand your ground lawā pertaining to firearm ownership.
Granted I do believe democracy is declining in Aus. We will probably be on par with the USA at some point.
But there are areas where the chance of getting shot by an intruder are literally akin to winning the lottery.
Does a Japanese citizen need to own a handgun to protect against other firearm equipped intruders? By looking at their firearm homicide rate and homicide rate in generalā¦ Probably not
Does an Isreali citizen require a firearm ? Almost certainly.
Iām not talking about owning a firearm for a hobby/for sport. We are referring to concealed carry for self defence by civillians. Many of whom would be too shit scared to pull the trigger on time in the first place.
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But isnāt smoking weed or getting an abortion bodily autonomy? Is restricting access to these commodities an example of totalitarianism? Not trying to be an asshole, I have nothing but an immense amount respect for you despite not agreeing with all of your political ideologies. It just seems like an inconsistent view
Granted I donāt know your stance on abortion, but I know your stance on narcotics. Narcotics can be destructive, ALL of them. The production/manufacture is (even pot) is a process typically steeped in violence, misery and exploitation.
Butā¦ The individual taking them is another matter all-together, particularly when/off they donāt lose a threat to others. Itās very unlikely for the casual weed smoker or dare I say the opium user to spaz out on a violent frenzy. Alcohol/stimulants are far more likely to lead to such a consequence. My argument for abortion is the clinical data indicating when an infant has an in-tact brain, fully formed organs, the ability to perhaps feel pain etc. Before that point I donāt believe one can identify an entity as a living, breathing, independent creature. @idaho
The right to own fireworks on oneās own property was what spurred this debate. I donāt see anything wrong with owning fireworks provided you have an apt amount of land suitable for setting them off, provided youāve taken safety courses and keep them away from kids (firecrackers are different/arguably less dangerous).
Banning fireworks = stifling many traditional holidaysā¦ And guns are proportionately more destructive.
I think the lack of gun violence in Australia may have more to do with less disparity between the social classes.
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That makes excellent sense.
Especially to this victim of a USA home invasion who had no time to get the upstairs handguns.
Instead I got a broken nose and some great stories out of it.
He got jail.
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Disagree, totally. There are no places free of violence.
Not sure what facts you are basing this statement on.
Donāt know what this has to do with guns. I donāt care what you do with your body, as long as you are not attacking me. What I care about is the right to defend myself at any time. Listen, a government will not be there to back you in a violent situation.
I know this from a life time of military and LEO experience. Pre george floyd, the average response time for a LEO in a major city was 5 to 7 minutes. Other than drug and fugitive units, police are reactive force. The are called AFTER the crime has occurred or is occurring. So, that critical time to defend your self falls on you.
Youāre misinterpreting my statement. The firearm homicide rate in Japan is 1 per 500,000 people. The homicide rate is similarly very low. The rate drops even (far) lower if you arenāt involved with organised crime
So owning a gun in the event of a firearm equipped intruder coming into your home or shooting you dead on the street is the equivalent of purchasing a lottery ticket because you āmight wināā¦ You wonāt win. As a matter of fact the gun homicide rate in Japan for 2018 was 0 per 100,000 peopleā¦ Thatās how low it is over there. The general homicide rate is around 1-300,000
The chances of dying (general statement) in a car crash is 1-107. The chances of getting struck by lightning are akin/higher than getting shot dead in Japan.
Not facts, just anecdote from when inexperienced people get into a fight. Itās all sweating, shaking, mouthing off. Then theyāll typically throw an ineffective haymaker or go for a shitty takedown. I imagine the same to be said with guns. Except now you have an individual potentially shooting at a perpetrator, missing and hitting the wrong personā¦ or nerves kick in, the attacker takes the gun off the individual and itās a homicide regardless.
Not everyone is a killer, even in self defence.
It doesnāt have anything to do with guns. It has to do with autonomy/autonomy being taken away from you. I apologise if I am coming across as arrogant/if I am upsetting you as this is legitimately not my intention
As specified, on the contrary I actually hold a great deal of respect towards you.
Culturally, America differs from a large portion of the developed world. Your firearm homicide rate is disproportionately high. You canāt compare Detroit to Okinawa. You canāt compare Baltimore to Melbourne.
I care about this too, yet in proportion to where I live. I donāt live in a dangerous part of the USA where thereās actually a decent possibility of me getting shot. Worst case scenario is Iām held at knifepoint, I give the attacker my phone and wallet, they let me go and I leave with a bruised ego yet Iām reimbursed for my insured equipment. Given the statistical likelihood of me getting shot/held at gunpoint in the neighbourhoods I reside in Iād be more than happy if it was simply legal for me to carry pepper spray, a knife, to know BJJ/Muay Thai or to be a very efficient sprinter (to run away). I had a couple of youths try start with me last year when I was drawing out cash. Iām assuming the intention was to take my money, do you know what I did? I quickly ran to my car and took offā¦
Spending my entire life paralysed in fear over what COULD potentially (but is very unlikely to) happen seems like a path to unhappinessā¦ And Iām unhappy enough as is.
I can try ensure I have the basics equipped as to handle a bad situation. But statistically Iām probably more likely to get hit by a car and die walking down the street than I am to get gunned down over here.
Do tell?
Iām curious
Something similar happened at my old school. An acquaintance (not a friend) of mine (dodgy guy) got into a bad situation. He was mugged and punched a few times. Little would have come out of it for the perpetrators aside from likeā¦ Probation + community service IF that due to the minor nature of the offence but one guy pulled a knife.
Somehow the evidence of said weapon possession was able to be put up in court and the guy got jail time
Even the youth gang problem here. Itās typically beatings in rough suburbs, sometimes stabbings. With the organised gangs firearms become an issue, but if you arenāt involved with that horrendous lifestyle changes are you donāt have to worry about getting shotā¦
Though there were those perpetrators that shot into a crowd in a Melbourne nightclub last yearā¦ Very rare and also gang motivated.
All this talk of gun owner necessity, I just wondered how many households in the USA had firearms. I did a little searching and found a site statista.com. They supplied yearly data from 1972-2020.
Starting at 2000 they had no skips of years, so I decided to attempt to analyze the data. I like to use time sensitive tools to see if the is a trend. The Control Chart will give you some context.
As you can see there is quite a bit of variation year-to-year. IMO, this points to flawed sampling. Therefore I am concerned that the data isnāt reliable. I also did a Fitted Line Plot to look for a trend of increasing or decreasing. It showed an extremely slow increase.
I would suspect there a a significant amount of āresponse biasā to the question of owning a firearm, that is, the surveyed person doesnāt want to admit they own a firearm. So take the data as you wish. I thought it interesting that only about 41% of households own guns.
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There are idiots, sometimes in packs, drunken or not, who have killed or maimed people with their bare hands and feet, with some cases with victims being significantly weaker or outnumbered. And the victimsā bank accounts didnāt get them off the hook.
Rich people donāt just walk around their gated communities and in New York City particularly rich people use the same public spaces as violent habitual criminals or live and work in towns a walking distance or right next to high-crime areas. Do you think rich peopleās bank accounts defend them everywhere they go or they should confine themselves from public spaces they care to go into?
My grandfather and his friends were middle class and lived in safe towns and they carried guns to work in the South Bronx in the late 70s and early 80s. The safety of their towns or their wealth didnāt matter in protecting them when out and about and my granddad was actuality held up twice in his life!
If habitual violent criminals care about their own hide, maybe they stop going around killing, robbing, raping, and assaulting people. They donāt get to choose their own punishments and we donāt have to sacrifice innocent peoples and well being and even their lives for others terrorizing them.
Have you ever seen a drunk idiot send someone to the hospital? Or a group of several idiots do that to one person? Because someone canāt use a gun on several people who just wrecked him or her, they now might have to recover from wounds, broken bones, and might even be permanently scarred or handicapped. Or maybe undergo surgery and missed work.
What do you suggest for people in cases where they canāt defend themselves from a stronger attacker or group of attackers? What would be fair, if not shooting them to defend oneās life or safety? I am for gun ownership but Iām about fairness too. For example, if a violent drunk idiot breaks someoneās eye socket or jaw, if shooting isnāt fair, how about he have his eye socket broken as a suggested legal punishment? He knocks someoneās teeth out, he has his teeth knocked out.
If shooting such violent people isnāt warranted or just, what is just?
Iām asking totally seriously, not being sarcastic. Btw, the higher earning people I know, two being upper-six and seven-figure earners, most have guns and they donāt have them for LARPing or to play tough guy.
One more thing, do you think thereās never been a rich guy who wasnāt assaulted or killed by another rich guy?
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This is a silly question. Some people donāt need guns. Some people shouldnāt have guns. Some people need guns.
You know who probably needed a gun? Most of the victims of violent crime who look back and think (provided they survived), āif only I had a gun.ā
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I havenāt met one gun owner whoās like that. Iām a gun owner and Iām not paralyzed with fear going about my day. Iāve also regularly leisurely strolled around high-crime towns I worked in for over a decade, but I was more vigilant than usual. Maybe I shouldāve been fearful, but I wasnāt. Now I work in a totally different sort of town, an upper-class one.
Looking back on my teenage years, to go through some towns I did by foot back in the 90s was certainly not careful though.
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A necessity? No. Something that in the US will probably always exist? Sure.
What I donāt understand in the states is our massive fetish with having huge arsenals. I live in an area where we have loads of people who probably own upwards of twenty guns.
Iād like to have us look at limiting the types of weapons people have and the amounts personally. To me you run out of good arguments with some of these things. You donāt need twenty guns for self defense. Also the hilarious argument of āwe need more guns!ā Why is that? āUghā¦to protect us from all the guns!ā
So I donāt think we should ban guns in the US, but having conversations about our issues with them makes sense. Interestingly the point about suicide is a big one. People are far more likely to kill themselves with a gun. Yes other ways exist, but the ease and no looking back type make it really dangerous. Yes people can cut wrists, swallow pills, hang themselves. But far more likely to complete suicide when they have access to a gun.