Iran to Stun the West on the 11th

[quote]hedo wrote:
Iran does not behave rationally. That is what makes them dangerous and unpredictable.

Today they announced they are a “nuclear nation”. At this point the US will do nothing imo. Obama does not have the spine to stand up to Iran and he will continue his “smart diplomacy” tactic that will yield no benefit for the US and allow Iran to continue to develop a workable and deliverable nuke. The Iranian leaders have correctly sized up Obama, judged him to be weak, and will continue to challenge and roll over him.

At this point Iran might as well put a bullseye on their nuke plants. That will make it easier for the IDF to hit them and cause less collateral damage. If Israel even gets an inkling that they are close to a bomb I think they will go nuclear and strike Iran first. Based on the public statements Iran has made they have no other choice.[/quote]

Oh please, this has nothing to do with Obama, although I personally believe his policies are a total failure.

Even the Saint Ronald of the Right tried sleazily to buy off the mullahs despite the fact they directly of indirectly killed more than 250 Americans in total during his watch. And guess what, nothing happened to them.

File:USS Stark.jpg - Wikipedia

As far as the Israelis are concerned, as I’ve written before, they are trying to push the Americans into bombing Iran. This isn’t 1981 Iraq and these guys aren’t like your run-of-the-mill brutal dictator capable only of killing his own people (ahem, Saddam).

So the Israelis are doing the typical “hold me back or I’ll hurt him routine” with their mid-air refueling traing, trying to force the US hand.

As far as the nuclear option is concerned, this is just one of those masturbatory fantasies by the US right.

So you bomb Tehran. What, the remnants of the Iranian military-theocratic complex say: “Ok, guys we give up”? Even the first two bombs failed to push Japan towards surrender, and that says something. So you’d have to use bombs and wipe out entire population of Iran.

While at the same time the Iranian proxy army quietly sits just miles away from Israeli towns. And of course, the flow of new immigrants into Saudi-funded mosques throughout the Muslim world would just cease.

Hell, I think you would even see acts of domestic terrorism in LA.

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:
Iran does not behave rationally. That is what makes them dangerous and unpredictable.

Today they announced they are a “nuclear nation”. At this point the US will do nothing imo. Obama does not have the spine to stand up to Iran and he will continue his “smart diplomacy” tactic that will yield no benefit for the US and allow Iran to continue to develop a workable and deliverable nuke. The Iranian leaders have correctly sized up Obama, judged him to be weak, and will continue to challenge and roll over him.

At this point Iran might as well put a bullseye on their nuke plants. That will make it easier for the IDF to hit them and cause less collateral damage. If Israel even gets an inkling that they are close to a bomb I think they will go nuclear and strike Iran first. Based on the public statements Iran has made they have no other choice.[/quote]

Oh please, this has nothing to do with Obama, although I personally believe his policies are a total failure.

Even the Saint Ronald of the Right tried sleazily to buy off the mullahs despite the fact they directly of indirectly killed more than 250 Americans in total during his watch. And guess what, nothing happened to them.

File:USS Stark.jpg - Wikipedia

As far as the Israelis are concerned, as I’ve written before, they are trying to push the Americans into bombing Iran. This isn’t 1981 Iraq and these guys aren’t like your run-of-the-mill brutal dictator capable only of killing his own people (ahem, Saddam).

So the Israelis are doing the typical “hold me back or I’ll hurt him routine” with their mid-air refueling traing, trying to force the US hand.

As far as the nuclear option is concerned, this is just one of those masturbatory fantasies by the US right.

So you bomb Tehran. What, the remnants of the Iranian military-theocratic complex say: “Ok, guys we give up”? Even the first two bombs failed to push Japan towards surrender, and that says something. So you’d have to use bombs and wipe out entire population of Iran.

While at the same time the Iranian proxy army quietly sits just miles away from Israeli towns. And of course, the flow of new immigrants into Saudi-funded mosques throughout the Muslim world would just cease.

Hell, I think you would even see acts of domestic terrorism in LA.
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone involved thinks that Iran respects or fears Obama. Hell even the French mock him. Obama is a peace and love rainbow chasing liberal. He isn’t going to force Iran to do anything and they know that too. At least with Bush these fucknuts knew where they stood and what would happen to them if they acted. Obama’s weakness creates doubt, and hope that what you will try might have a chance of working and not be responded to with force. The doubt is the danger that is created.

If you think the Israeli’s will sit idly by and let the Iranians develop a working nuclear weapon you are mistaken. They have acted preemptively in the past and won’t hesitate to do so again. I don’t think they would stop at two weapons by the way. The Israeli arsenal is rumored to be in the hundreds, deliverable by land based missiles that actually work, planes and sea launched cruise missiles. I doubt they would use only two. As to the proxy army, I doubt if the IDF would show much restraint obliterating it at that point, especially after using nukes in a first strike. Syrian would do it’s best to avoid making eye contact with Israel after such an event, lest they get hit next, because of past grievances.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Iran does not behave rationally. That is what makes them dangerous and unpredictable.

Today they announced they are a “nuclear nation”. At this point the US will do nothing imo. Obama does not have the spine to stand up to Iran and he will continue his “smart diplomacy” tactic that will yield no benefit for the US and allow Iran to continue to develop a workable and deliverable nuke. The Iranian leaders have correctly sized up Obama, judged him to be weak, and will continue to challenge and roll over him.

At this point Iran might as well put a bullseye on their nuke plants. That will make it easier for the IDF to hit them and cause less collateral damage. If Israel even gets an inkling that they are close to a bomb I think they will go nuclear and strike Iran first. Based on the public statements Iran has made they have no other choice.[/quote]

this is both frightening and exciting news

Them enriching uranium which we all ready knew about and something they said already is this big shock? What let down. I thought they’d blow some shit up and kill a bunch of people, or at least hang a bunch of gays in the middle of Tehran. What a bunch of pussies.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:

no US administration would risk a conventional showdown with Iran. Basij militiamen are on a completely different level of crazy compared to inept Baathists in Iraq.

[/quote]

If you’re talking politically, then I agree with you. If you’re talking militarily, then you have got to be kidding. [/quote]

Aragorn, YOU have to be kidding.

[i]

Iran: Our Military Options
by Peter Brookes
January 23, 2006 | Send to a Friend

A reporter last month asked Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the Israel Defense Force’s chief of staff, how far Israel is willing to go to stop Iran’s nuclear (weapons) program; the general answered: “2,000 kilometers” â?? the flying distance from Israel to Iran’s key nuclear sites.

Keeping the military option on the table for dealing with the Mullahs of Mayhem’s atomic intransigence makes good policy sense. Diplomacy and “soft power” options such as economic sanctions are always more effective when backed up by the credible threat of force.

Unfortunately, flattening Iran’s nuclear infrastructure isn’t easy or risk-free â?? and could have serious consequences for American interests. The key challenge: the program is underground â?? literally and figuratively.

Iran burrowed many sites deep below the soil, making them much tougher targets. (It also put some near populated areas to make civilian casualties a certainty if attacked.) And these are the sites we know about: At least two dozen nuclear-related sites are scattered across the country (which is four times California’s size) â?? but it may be more than 70.

By burying and dispersing its facilities, Iran is clearly trying to avoid the fate of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program back in 1981 â?? when Israeli F-16 fighters, crossing Jordan and Saudi Arabia, destroyed Iraq’s 40-megawatt Osiraq reactor in a dawn raid, effectively setting Saddam’s nuke dreams back a decade.

An Israeli strike at Iran today might feature fighters carrying satellite-guided JDAM bombs, cruise missiles on diesel subs â?? and Special Forces. But the task would be much tougher than the Osiraq strike, thanks to the number of targets and their dispersion, and the greater distances from any Israeli base.

What about U.S. airstrikes? These could take a range of forms, depending on policymakers’ desires. Surgical strikes might limit their targets to Iran’s air defenses (for access) and key nuclear sites (e.g., Bushehr, Nantanz, Arak). Or an escalated attack could nail all suspected nuke facilities â?? plus forces Tehran might use in a counterattack, such as its ballistic missiles and conventional forces.

Depending on the strike’s objective, think Operation Iraqi Freedom: B-2 stealth bombers carrying bunker-busters, F-117 stealth fighters and other Navy/Air Force strike assets from carriers and theater bases â?? plus Navy destroyers and subs loosing cruise missiles on Iranian targets.

But could a raid destroy all sites? Thanks to the covert nature of the Iranian program, that’s not clear. It’s highly likely, though, that striking key facilities would set the program back, possibly causing Tehran to reconsider the folly of its proliferation perfidy.

But it’s unlikely to be that simple. After an assault, Iran might lash out with a vengeance. We’d have to be fully prepared for some nasty blowback.

Tehran and its terrorist toadies can brew up some serious trouble for both America and Israel â?? or anyone else that supported an attack on the fundamentalist Islamic state.

The Iranian regime is already up to its neck in the insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan. It could certainly increase its financial/material support to the Sunni insurgents, Shia militants, al Qaeda, and the Taliban to destabilize the new Baghdad and Kabul governments â?? and kill Coalition forces.

And don’t forget about Iran’s other “secret” weapon â?? oil. As the world’s No. 4 oil exporter, Tehran could rattle oil markets and major economies (e.g., Japan, South Korea, France, Italy) by slashing output. It could also mess with other nations’ oil exports â?? attacking tankers in the Gulf using mines, subs, patrol boats or anti-ship missiles.

The mullahs could unleash their terrorist attack dogs Hezbollah, Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad against Israel, killing untold numbers in suicide attacks â?? and scuttling any peace process prospects. Iran could also pound populous Tel Aviv with its Shahab missiles mated with chemical/biological warheads.

The U.S. homefront could get hit, too. Over the last few years, the FBI has evicted Iranian intel officers for surveilling New York City tourist/transport sites. Hezbollah has supporters â?? and likely has operatives â?? in America who might undertake acts of terrorism or sabotage U.S. ports or bases, too.

Iran now harbors at least 25 senior al Qaeda operatives, including senior military commander Saif al Adel and three of Osama bin Laden’s sons. If we come to blows, would Tehran help al Qaeda hit the U.S. homeland? (The offices of Iran’s U.N. mission might facilitate such an attack. . .)

This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use military might to interrupt or end Iran’s nuclear gambit; it may be the best/only option. There are no easy answers, only tough choices.

But the military option has to stay on the table. Otherwise, it’s a snap that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will let Tehran’s nuclear genie out of the bottle.

Peter Brookes is a Heritage Foundation senior fellow. His book, “A Devil’s Triangle: Terrorism, WMD and Rogue States,” is just out.

First appeared in the New York Post

©2010 The Heritage Foundation
[/i]

http://www.heritage.org/press/commentary/ed012306a.cfm

[quote]hedo wrote:

If you think the Israeli’s will sit idly by and let the Iranians develop a working nuclear weapon you are mistaken. They have acted preemptively in the past and won’t hesitate to do so again. [/quote]

I don’t think any serious analysis should even mention the Syrians. The IDF can rest assured that whatever happens elsewhere, they can always drive their tanks to Damascus pretty much unhindered.

Yes, the Israelis have struck before, notably Osirak in 1981. Saddam’s nuclear program was in much earlier stages of development than the current Iranian one when it was hit.

Now, the 32 000 $ question is, if the Iranians are so much more dangerous to Israeli security than Saddam was in 1981, why weren’t they attacked already?

And no, “unstable international situation” and other crap is not a valid answer.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why is it not feasible? They hate us and want to destroy us. Whoever hits first in a fight usually wins.[/quote]
Oh, you mean like Japan when they hit us first in 1941? Or Germany when they hit Russia first earlier that same year?

Whoever hits second occupies the moral high ground. It’s an important advantage.

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:

If you think the Israeli’s will sit idly by and let the Iranians develop a working nuclear weapon you are mistaken. They have acted preemptively in the past and won’t hesitate to do so again. [/quote]

I don’t think any serious analysis should even mention the Syrians. The IDF can rest assured that whatever happens elsewhere, they can always drive their tanks to Damascus pretty much unhindered.

Yes, the Israelis have struck before, notably Osirak in 1981. Saddam’s nuclear program was in much earlier stages of development than the current Iranian one when it was hit.

Now, the 32 000 $ question is, if the Iranians are so much more dangerous to Israeli security than Saddam was in 1981, why weren’t they attacked already?

And no, “unstable international situation” and other crap is not a valid answer.

[/quote]

Good question and I don’t have the answer to it. The leadership in Israel is different certainly. Both Begin and the opposition leader at the time (Perez) both agreed the attacks were necessary back then. Perhaps today’s leaders in Israel are more apt to bargain diplomatically then the hawks of old. However the core values remain the same and I don’t see them letting the Iranians have nukes with the present people in charge. The public statements the Iranians have made, have to be taken seriously.

Keep in mind Osirak was attacked by the Iranians almost a year before the successful Israeli attack so the Iranians shouldn’t expect much restraint either. The job wasn’t completed until coalition forces blasted it to hell in GW1.

I’m fucking STUNNED.

[quote]jwillow wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why is it not feasible? They hate us and want to destroy us. Whoever hits first in a fight usually wins.[/quote]
Oh, you mean like Japan when they hit us first in 1941? Or Germany when they hit Russia first earlier that same year?

Whoever hits second occupies the moral high ground. It’s an important advantage.[/quote]

Hitler attacked Poland, France, Norway,…

Japs hit many others in similar fashion.

Now, the Germans estimated the Russians had 180 effective divisions. They had 300.

Japan assumed America, whose economy was 5 times larger, wouldn’t fight. ha…

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

I’m fucking STUNNED.[/quote]

Why? They’re evil.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You are all foolish if you believe that he will launch a nuclear weapon under the flag of Iran.

This is the same fucking thing I said about Saddam, and about Kim Jong Il- they like being in power. In fact, they love it. They’re not going to give that up for ANYTHING in this world, and they’re not going to risk total annihilation by trying to nuke anyone, regardless of what they say.

For such America-centric assholes, you people sure forget quickly who is the unequivocal top dog in the world. We are a pittbull looking down at a yipping runt of a dog in Iran- he can say all he wants, but in the end it takes one big bite to end him. And don’t think he doesn’t know that.

You people amaze me.[/quote]

What do you mean “you people?”

…Actually, yeah I pretty much agree with Irish on this one. MAD works. It works REALLY REALLY well.

Fareed Zakaria wrote a really great piece about Iran having nukes not being a bad thing in a Newsweek from like four months ago. I was pretty convinced by it, along with the weight of history of course.

MAD works if the parties involved are rational. The Iranians aren’t rational and have a religious agenda that pretty much excuses them of responsibility and provides a reward as long as they kill infidels.

MAD worked against the Soviets and most Western nations because they are secular and rational. Let’s face it the Soviets knew they didn’t have the offensive capability to completely take out the US nuclear forces. Poor accuracy and reliability of their ICBM’s wasn’t up to the task, the SLBM’s they have still aren’t reliable and the subs would have been taken out before they could fire. Sure a few long range bombers and some of the missles would have made it to the US. Substantially all of our nukes would have hit their targets in the USSR and exploded, thereby ending the story. MAD worked because the outcome was assured, the Soviets knew it was a losing proposition. Now if they believed they would be rewarded in the after life for killing in the present life…the story may have turned out different.

Zakaria believes the Iranians to be rational players. To assume they are is dangerous because it involves trusting your enemy will do something. Never depend on that.

[quote]hedo wrote:
MAD works if the parties involved are rational. The Iranians aren’t rational and have a religious agenda that pretty much excuses them of responsibility and provides a reward as long as they kill infidels.

Zakaria believes the Iranians to be rational players. To assume they are is dangerous because it involves trusting your enemy will do something. Never depend on that.[/quote]

“If you haven’t discovered the vast conspiracy by the West against USSR, it means you haven’t dug deep enough” - Joe Stalin

Russians were masters of paranoia - not just Stalin who shot government officials by the dozen for failing to provide him with the proof about the diabolical Western conspiracy - but also Kruschev, Brezhnev and Andropov.

For example, during the NATO Able Archer exercise in early 1980ies, several Politburo members advocated a Sovier first strike.

As far as the Iranians are concerned, let’s not confuse them with the likes of mullah Omar who, according to some sources, was convinced “infidels” had a third eye.

They are a nasty, ruthless, cynical bunch, that’s certain. But not irrational. Of course, they play by different rules than the West, but so was Mao during the Korean War.

Back on topic:

Indeed I am “stunned” and no doubt so is the entire West.

In the stunning regard in question, the Iranians have actually gotten their backward asses nearly up to where we were almost 70 years ago.

Impressive. Just goes to show.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Zakaria believes the Iranians to be rational players. To assume they are is dangerous because it involves trusting your enemy will do something. Never depend on that.[/quote]

The Iranian’s are rational. Trust me. They may support insane people, but insane people (relative insanity <_<) don’t run the government. They know as well as everyone else what would happen to Iran should they set off a nuclear device in an act of war.

Insane and religiously driven =/= Retarded.

My worry is that they might let their device or uranium fall into the hands of someone truly insane, with not national ties. As far as I see, the nations of the world will NOT go nuclear, simply because they know the result is apocalyptic.

[quote]

1:42 to 1:46 is something I have never seen before…that looks crazy…

[quote]loppar wrote:

“If you haven’t discovered the vast conspiracy by the West against USSR, it means you haven’t dug deep enough” - Joe Stalin[/quote]

“If you haven’t discovered that Joseph Stalin was a Catholic Priest in his younger years and a Catholic Priest covertly acting for the Catholic Church in his older years, it means you’re an idiot.”

Abe Lincoln and The Mazzini Royal Family and Albert Pike wrote that The Catholic Church was planning “3 World Wars”:

1.) make Russia Atheist
2.) give Israel to Jews
3.) Jews and Muslim anihilate each other and all nations except Russia and their other atheist neighbors get involved trying to stop the Jews and Muslims in the middle east from destroying each other…everyone gets weak but Russia and China…then Russia and China take over the world making the world atheist and removing all religions…

then they make the world Catholic…Abe Lincon wrote a little too much and got killed…

he did write however that “the Jesuit Order has tried to kill me numerous times and eventually will succeed” in alomst exact words in his autobiography…

  • Lenin was a Catholic plant by the way
  • sources say that Lenin was trained in NYC by them and then they sent him a train load of gold when he started his revolution
  • but you guys already know this

honest Abe got shot to tell us this

[quote]newbatman wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:

“If you haven’t discovered the vast conspiracy by the West against USSR, it means you haven’t dug deep enough” - Joe Stalin[/quote]

“If you haven’t discovered that Joseph Stalin was a Catholic Priest in his younger years and a Catholic Priest covertly acting for the Catholic Church in his older years, it means you’re an idiot.”[/quote]

Wouldn’t stalin have been Orthodox? Russians aren’t Catholics.