Iran Outraged by 300

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]RatHunter wrote:
But if you are to believe in Heracles, then you are to believe in Zeus and the rest of the Greek Gods. Again, determining history that old is impossible, it’s hard enough to believe in Jesus, much less Heracles, Hydras, Minotaurs, and three-headed lions.

[/quote]

Your logic escapes me.

More than likely, Heracles, Achilleus, Theseus and other mythological figures were real men, whose history (as was said in Fellowship of the Ring) became legend, and legend became myth.

A belief in a historic Heracles does not necessarily require a belief in minotaurs, hydras or the Olympian gods, any more than a belief in a historic Jesus necessarily requires belief in his walking on water, changing water into wine, or rising from the dead.

82

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
RatHunter wrote:
But if you are to believe in Heracles, then you are to believe in Zeus and the rest of the Greek Gods. Again, determining history that old is impossible, it’s hard enough to believe in Jesus, much less Heracles, Hydras, Minotaurs, and three-headed lions.

Your logic escapes me.

More than likely, Heracles, Achilleus, Theseus and other mythological figures were real men, whose history (as was said in Fellowship of the Ring) became legend, and legend became myth.

A belief in a historic Heracles does not necessarily require a belief in minotaurs, hydras or the Olympian gods, any more than a belief in a historic Jesus necessarily requires belief in his walking on water, changing water into wine, or rising from the dead.[/quote]

So, you’re basically selectively taking what should be true and what should be false.

83

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

Yeah, I know about the Delphic prophesy, and yes, I realize that he didn’t just go for a visit. My point was that he crossed a river on the Lydian border, made a short incursion into Persian territory, and was forced to retreat. When he disbanded his army for winter (as was the custom in ancient times), Cyrus launched a full scale assault and annexed the entire kingdom of Lydia.

And please don’t try to make Croesus out to be a “western aggressor” (or even “western.” He spoke Anatolian, and worshipped different gods than the Greeks (including one that demanded sacrifices of puppies). Overall, Lydian culture was decidedly more oriental than Greek… although Hellenic culture did make inroads under the reign of Alyattes, Croesus’ father).

It is my belief that Croesus saw in the upstart king Cyrus (who had just led a successful coup d’etat against the Medes in Persia) an ambitious, land-grabbing tyrant who would soon attempt to bring Lydia and all the lands to the west under Persian control (indeed, the Persian Medes had already grabbed all of the Lydian territories up to the Halys river in Alyattes’ time). So Croesus embarked on his own (somewhat ill-advised) campaign to expand his eastern frontier, before Cyrus could himself invade.

One interesting footnote about Cyrus: Shortly after the capture of Lydia, the Spartans sent an envoy to Sardis to see Cyrus for themselves. Upon seeing the Spartan ambassadors, Cyrus reportedly sneered and said, “who are the Spartans?!”

His empire was to find out who the Spartans were soon enough.[/quote]

Yes, the Persians found out some time later. Everyone has their time of greatness in history. And as they say, history is written by the victors… history that is mainly written by the west. And even in this history, Cyrus is still known as “The Great”, for his many contributions to civilization, while Croseus is mainly known as an example of hubris (as written by Herodotus).

84

[quote]RatHunter wrote:

And even in this history, Cyrus is still known as “The Great”, for his many contributions to civilization, while Croseus is mainly known as an example of hubris (as written by Herodotus).

[/quote]

I don’t contest the fact that Cyrus was a powerful and effective ruler.

But let’s try a fun little experiment: go out, right now, and ask fifty people, “which of Cyrus the Great’s contributions to civilization are having the most positive impact upon your life?”

Some of them, if they have read the Bible, may remember that it was Cyrus that allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and rebuild the temple, but more than likely, few of the others will be able to name a single one of his contributions, nor probably even know who Cyrus the Great was.

Nearly all of them, however, will have some coins in their pocket. That’s Croesus’ contribution.

85

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Wasn’t this based kind of on a comic book?

And let’s see, it really did sorta happen and the Persia were sorta the ones who were doing the invading.

[/quote]

So now invading is bad?

86

[quote]SeanT wrote:
adziar wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:

Give me a f%@king break.

No, the real funny thing is that most people that see this movie wouldn’t know where Persia is.

DB

Or the fact that about half the people going to see this movie don’t know that it’s originally based off an actual event… which I don’t understand why they’re even complaining about it since it d.id actually happen in the past it’s just a part of their history.

Besides why do people have to read into everything these days, they should just accept it as it is, a form of entertainment.

Actually it was based on a comic book. There never was a million persian soldiers to fight the battle. Remember history is written by the winners. I think it was 10,000 vs 300. Still very slim odds, but they outsmarted them and won.[/quote]

I haven’t seen the movie and I don’t know what history books you used, but in my book, the Greeks were outflanked and lost.

Not without putting up a brave fight, but that didn’t stop them from losing.

87

[quote]PGJ wrote:
That is hilarious. They are concerned about being perceived as “bloodthirsty”.

These are the same people who danced in the streets on 9/11.

The same people who teach their children to die for Allah in holy jihad.

The same people who dress thier children up as little suicide bombers.

The same people who gather in the hundreds of thousands and chant “Death to America, Death to the UK, Death to the Infidels”.

The same people who have publically made their #1 goal in life to eliminate Israel.

The same people who use children as human shields in combat.

The same people who preach that Jews use the actual blood of children to make bread.

Oh, yes. The movie “300” is really going to tarnish the image of Iran and other middle eastern nations.
[/quote]

And how do you call the people who agreed with the Abu Ghraib atrocities?

Patriots?

88

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

I haven’t seen the movie and I don’t know what history books you used, but in my book, the Greeks were outflanked and lost.

Not without putting up a brave fight, but that didn’t stop them from losing.[/quote]

Yeah, they lost. Leonidas and the Spartans knew it was a suicide mission from the start, with no real hope of accomplishing anything but delaying the Persians until the Athenians could finish getting their shit wired together.

However…

History is full of these fun little hypotheticals.

If Xerxes’ advance hadn’t coincided with the Spartan Carneian festival, and an entire contingent of 10 thousand Spartan peers and periokoi, and a few tens of thousands of helots had marched with Leonidas;

If the fucking Thebans had been more committed to Greece (they were secretly rooting for the Persians, rather as New Jersey and New York rooted for the British during the American Revolution) and had sent more than a token force of 400;

If the Athenians has listened more closely to Themistocles, and had made their defensive preparations with more alacrity, and then, along with the Corinthians and Megarans, had sent a few companies of hoplites to reinforce Leonidas’ line; and

If Leonidas had used the extra men to bolster his rear, particularly the Phokian road;

…then there is no doubt in my mind that the Greeks would have repelled the invaders at Thermopylae, and sent Xerxes back to Persepolis licking his wounds.

89

[quote]RatHunter wrote:
So, you’re basically selectively taking what should be true and what should be false. [/quote]

No, simply accepting what is plausible and rejecting what is not.

90

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Upon seeing the Spartan ambassadors, Cyrus reportedly sneered and said, “who are the Spartans?!”

His empire was to find out who the Spartans were soon enough.[/quote]

One might call that…
the education of Cyrus

(badumdum SHH!)

91

[quote]reckless wrote:
I haven’t seen the movie and I don’t know what history books you used, but in my book, the Greeks were outflanked and lost.

Not without putting up a brave fight, but that didn’t stop them from losing.[/quote]

You should know something about losing. However, having strong Kings and holding out against all odds is probably new to you.

For insance, please compare leopold III of belgium to Leonidas.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there was still bitterness at your abrupt surrender and exposing the allied flank.

For anyone who isn’t familar with what I’m talking about, look up leopold III and his role during World War II.

JeffR

92

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Ren wrote:
I read that this morning and laughed my ass off. Government propaganda at its finest. Or a bunch of whiners. Maybe anytime a movie comes out that in some way has ties to a current world squabble governments should bitch about it.

I mean come on, its a movie, based on a comic, based on events from over 2000 years ago. At least we are not the only country that buys heavily into the bullshit our respective governments spew.

The Internet may make government irrelevent someday. Information undermined the old Soviet Union. Kim Jung-Il (North Korea) is terrified of the Internet, and what his subjects might find out. Its getting harder and harder to trick people.

The Information Age may also make war obsolete. When people actually have to look at the images of war night after night, it might dawn on them to stop that.

The odds might be long, but let’s hope.

Let’s hear it for science, esp information technology!!

[/quote]

You are one of the biggest warmongerers on this board.

Hypocrite.

93

[quote]PGJ wrote:
otoko wrote:

No, I don’t mean only the government. When I see a city square jam-packed with countless people screaming “Death to America, Death to Israel”, I don’t see that as a government issue. When I see mullahs preaching that it’s a God given right to kill infidels, that’s not a government issue. When I see kids dressed up as little suicide bombers, that’s not a government issue.

Yes, the Iranian government is evil. There is no freedom in Iran. However, if Iran is truly concerned about it’s image, they need to take a close look at their own actions. That goes for every single citizen. Radical Islam is brutally violent and intolerant. If the so-called “good Muslims” don’t wake up and take a stand, their entire religion and culture will be over-run with hard-core radicals bent on killing anything that is not the same as them.

[/quote]

I understand your point.
I must point out that the images you see are the ones conveyed by the media. I have never been to Iran. I doubt that they wake up(the majority) everyday and jam-pack a city square to to chant for the downfall of America by their own choice. Is this the image you have?
I was talking about regular people, not muslim extremists. Some Iranians aren’t even Muslim by choice, it is ordained by government. They can’t be good muslims or bad muslims since they aren’t really Muslim by choice.
From what I have been told Iran has opened up, it has gotten better since the revolution. Much better than say Saudi Arabia.
What are the good muslims to do? how would they take a stand against their government? If the government is that repressive. Do you suggest that ordinary hard-working men and women with families sacrifice their lives in fighting their government or Muslim extremists? What benefit is there for them? To make a country thousands of miles away feel safer? Does the instability that would ensue after the Iranian theocracy topples be worth it? Would that stop extremists from preaching? Or would it lead to a situation like Iraq’s with muslim insurgents mounting a guerilla campaign? I think people have to try to look at it from an non-extremist muslim Iraninas point of view. You don’t have to agree with it. But you would have to understand the factors that influence them to make the decisions that they do for any progress to happen.

94

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
…But let’s try a fun little experiment: go out, right now, and ask fifty people, “which of Cyrus the Great’s contributions to civilization are having the most positive impact upon your life?”

…[/quote]

Either “Achey Breaky Heart” or his hot little daughter Hannah Montana.

95

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
RatHunter wrote:

And even in this history, Cyrus is still known as “The Great”, for his many contributions to civilization, while Croseus is mainly known as an example of hubris (as written by Herodotus).

I don’t contest the fact that Cyrus was a powerful and effective ruler.

But let’s try a fun little experiment: go out, right now, and ask fifty people, “which of Cyrus the Great’s contributions to civilization are having the most positive impact upon your life?”

Some of them, if they have read the Bible, may remember that it was Cyrus that allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and rebuild the temple, but more than likely, few of the others will be able to name a single of his contributions, nor probably even know who Cyrus the Great was.

Nearly all of them, however, will have some coins in their pocket. There’s Croesus’ contribution.[/quote]

You must be kidding me. Lydia was credited as the first state to mint coins… but Croesus did not invent it. Coin was “invented” more than over 100 years before he was even born. Croesus was the last king of Lydia, the very person that caused his own kingdom’s destruction. So much for greatness.

As for Cyrus, well, he’s only credited for creating the first charter of HUMAN CIVIL RIGHTS. The same rights that parts of the U.S. Constitution emulated. Cyrus, by pursuing a policy of generosity instead of repression, and by favoring local religions, was able to make his newly conquered subjects into enthusiastic supporters.

Many of the forefathers of the United States of America sought inspiration from Cyrus The Great through works such as Cyropaedia. Thomas Jefferson had two personal copies of the book, which was A MANDATORY READ for statesmen alongside Machiavelli’s The Prince.

“Cyrus the Great is genuinely one of history’s towering figures. America’s own founders such as Thomas Jefferson were influenced by Cyrus the Great in the field of Human Rights” - Ted Koppel

96

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…But let’s try a fun little experiment: go out, right now, and ask fifty people, “which of Cyrus the Great’s contributions to civilization are having the most positive impact upon your life?”

…

Either “Achey Breaky Heart” or his hot little daughter Hannah Montana. [/quote]

Thank you, Zap. Quod erat demonstrandum.

97

[quote]RatHunter wrote:

You must be kidding me. Lydia was credited as the first state to mint coins… but Croesus did not invent it. Coin was “invented” more than over 100 years before he was even born.
[/quote]

No, I am not kidding you. Lydians may have taken lumps of electrum and stamped marks on them “more than over” a hundred years before Croesus’ time, but that doesn’t make them coins. A true coin satisfies three conditions: it is of a standardized weight, a standardized purity of metal, and is guaranteed by the government. Croesus’ gold and silver staters were the first in history to satisfy all three.

98

[quote]RatHunter wrote:
Many of the forefathers of the United States of America sought inspiration from Cyrus The Great through works such as Cyropaedia. Thomas Jefferson had two personal copies of the book, which was A MANDATORY READ for statesmen alongside Machiavelli’s The Prince.

“Cyrus the Great is genuinely one of history’s towering figures. America’s own founders such as Thomas Jefferson were influenced by Cyrus the Great in the field of Human Rights” - Ted Koppel

[/quote]

If I didn’t know better, I’d suspect that you lifted those passages verbatim from Wikipedia.

As I stated above, I don’t deny that Cyrus was a great ruler. It wasn’t his fault that his successors fucked with the wrong guys.

99

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Ren wrote:
I read that this morning and laughed my ass off. Government propaganda at its finest. Or a bunch of whiners. Maybe anytime a movie comes out that in some way has ties to a current world squabble governments should bitch about it.

I mean come on, its a movie, based on a comic, based on events from over 2000 years ago. At least we are not the only country that buys heavily into the bullshit our respective governments spew.

The Internet may make government irrelevent someday. Information undermined the old Soviet Union. Kim Jung-Il (North Korea) is terrified of the Internet, and what his subjects might find out. Its getting harder and harder to trick people.

The Information Age may also make war obsolete. When people actually have to look at the images of war night after night, it might dawn on them to stop that.

The odds might be long, but let’s hope.

Let’s hear it for science, esp information technology!!

You are one of the biggest warmongerers on this board.

Hypocrite.[/quote]

Laughable. I only advocate war when another nation threatens to annihilate us or an ally. I only advocate war if another nation’s leader calls us Satan and starts developing nukes. I advocate war when another nation keeps its citizens in virtual slavery (North Korea). You libs keep waiting around for the slaves to rebel, while they sit in North Korean Concentration Camps, or watch their children be tortured.

War IS noble if it’s for the right reasons, such as going into Iraq and Afghanistan. The other nations of the world (the goddamned cowards) should be helping us liberate the world. Instead, they hide in their European cities or in their safe little protest marches here and scream about US being terrorists. I wish these scum could spend just FIVE MINUTES at the hands of Kim Jung-Il’s minions or at the hands of some beheading Muslim SOB…the goddamned cowards!

100

[quote]RatHunter wrote:
As for Cyrus, well, he’s only credited for creating the first charter of HUMAN CIVIL RIGHTS.

[/quote]

You’d think that with all his invading neighboring kingdoms, killing the kings, subjugating the populace, stealing the treasuries and sticking them in his own stockade, old Cyrus would have been too busy to write any charters of HUMAN CIVIL RIGHTS. He must have been good at multi-tasking.