By what standard are the 50’s better than today? Essentially almost every aspect of life is way better today than then for middle and upper class white people. Remarkably better in terms of things middle and upper class women could do.
Now if we’re measuring it in terms of how much better middle and upper class whites had it then compared to people who weren’t white did that’s a different story. Most of the good old days people really mean the good old days when women stayed in the kitchen and black people drank out of different water fountains.
If we look at the typical standard measurements; health, freedom, education, access to material goods and services, all of these are a better now than then. The only things that would be better then than now are if your talking about inequality. But that’s because the gap between the tops and the bottoms has grown and the gaps between the top and the middle. You’re about a million times less likely to die in a war.
Being middle class white today vs being middle class white in 1950? You’d pick today every day. Being poor today vs then? You’d pick today so fast your head would pop off your shoulders. Of course I mean in America.
I believe the past is often remembered more fondly because we’re living in the problems of our time. We think “right now has to be as bad as it’s ever been.” But usually when scrutinized we wouldn’t come to that conclusion.
This is one of my favorite commencement speeches that reminded me of the topic. If one can overlook that it’s some liberal from Harvard I think a lot of good things can be gleaned from it about how much progress we have seen in the last century.
Not to say today is perfect by any means. But the statistics in here are pretty mind boggling when I first read it.
Back then the average working man could support a wife and several kids, and live fairly comfortably. Now you have to be making at least 80k+ to do that (here at least) and most women have no choice but to work, unless living off welfare is something that appeals to them
Maybe my opinion is largely influenced by the fact that I live in Canada and not the US. He have had public healthcare since 1957, and apparently the education system was better decades ago, aside from things like corporal punishment. Most of the other stuff is just materialism, you don’t really need all shiny brand new things and the latest smartphone, a lot of people are financially fucked because the prioritize those things over everything else.
Yeah, I see your point and that’s not what I’m talking about. We covered the feminist issue in another thread, sure some women were abused but most seem to have been happy with being housewives. Some women are still abused today, and some wish they could be stay at home moms.
As far as the racial segregation thing, again that is an American issue. Outside of Nova Scotia, where escaped slaves from the US settled along with Jamaican Maroons who the British dumped there, there wasn’t any significant black population here until the 70’s and 80’s. My father grew up in a small city in southern Ontario and back in the 60’s there was one black family and one Chinese family, maybe they weren’t welcomed with open arms but they weren’t ostracized either. I know a Jamaican guy who moved to Ottawa in the 80’s and he said it was almost a year before he saw another black person other than his brother and mother. Even all the housing projects in Toronto were 90%+ white people back then, I know another guy who lived in Regent Park when he first came here.
So I hear what you are saying, but that’s more specific to the US. Of course my mother’s family in Poland wasn’t having a great time either under Soviet control and my grandfather’s friends getting executed for speaking against the communist government.
Idk, pretty sure a man making 65k/year could support a wife and two kids if he lived in a 2bed/1bath, had 1 cheap car, his kids and wife had cheap/handmedown clothes, the wife clipped coupons, and the family ate in 29 days of the month. That’s a pretty middle-class life in the 50s.
Like we have all touched on, what do people actually consider a middle class lifestyle anymore?
If you have to make 80 k to be comfortable in that scenario you’re fucking up your budgeting real bad. What’s the evidence that the average working man supported a wife and several kids and was fairly comfortable vs your scenario? An episode of Leave it to Beaver? How do you know they were fairly comfortable and what does that mean?
What is the evidence the education system was better decades ago? I would think today undoubtedly kids have more access to it than then. I would think you’re pumping out way more college graduates. Higher high school graduation rates etc. Not that those are the be all end all but considering how much more advanced technology is today and the quality of life in Canada on the whole it can’t be producing just dummies.
Low test scores does not mean poor educational system. A lot of those are influenced by home life. Also back in the 50’s a lot of kids who weren’t very bright we kicked out of schools. Do that today and watch our test scores skyrocket.
Maybe part of the problem here is too much taxes, if you are making 65k then you will only have maybe 40-45k left after tax. A few years ago me and my wife were making more than that combined and living in one of the cheapest places in the city that isn’t public housing and didn’t have much left over after the bills were paid. Sure we could have survived on less, but that wouldn’t really be living comfortably. And I was driving a rusty 2002 Honda Civic.
Regular average people were able to buy houses back then. Now everything is too expensive, and even renting is ridiculous outside of some shady areas.
Yeah, but more high school graduates who can’t spell properly or do simple math. I know someone who is a university professor and in recent years they stopped failing students as long as they show up. Someone who would have got a C 20 years ago now gets an A and people who lack a basic understanding of the subject still get a degree.
I’m not saying things were perfect in the past, but it looks pretty dysfunctional these days. I went to a high school where maybe 1/4-1/3 of students dropped out. This is sort of a different issue, but not everyone is suited to sitting at a desk and doing paperwork (which is what high school is) so I think they should provide different opportunities for people who aren’t inclined to that sort of thing. Instead they cancel shop classes and make it almost impossible to get a trade apprenticeship. Just because paperwork isn’t your thing doesn’t mean you should be condemned to life of crime and poverty.
Meanwhile the house today has two or more vehicles, a garage, riding lawnmower, high speed Internet, tv in every room, cell phone for every kid, fridge and freezer, and they have food delivered to their house when they are busy.
It’s not that they can’t live comfortably it’s that our expectations today are light years ahead of them. Pair that shit down to the bare essentials like the 50’s and the today person has vastly more wealth.
Yeah but most people who live like that are drowning in debt. I have one car, no lawn, one tv, land line only (wife has a cell phone), and I never order food.
I used to live across the street from the projects in downtown Ottawa (Lowertown), back then satellite TV was the thing and almost every single house there had a satellite dish. People really have their priorities mixed up.
But now that I think about it, maybe reminiscing on the past doesn’t really make much sense. We need to look at how to move forward, not backward.
A lot of this depends on where you live. 80k where I live you can buy almost any house you want. What are regular average people?
Perhaps. When you have more kids in school staying longer you’re going to get that from time to time. Doesn’t mean education was better back then. Have the kids who aren’t intelligent drop out at 13 and bam high schools test scores shoot through the roof. Kids with special needs school wasn’t even an option. The education system isn’t keeping kids from having access to help like back then.
Again poverty extremely lower. Did you read the article? When’s the last time you looked at schools? Here in America we’ve seen a massive increase in pushing kids towards apprenticeships. Most of these we pay for so the kids don’t have significant debt. If we don’t want shop cut maybe invest more in education? I can think of the side that’s typically against it.
Idk your life, only my own. When I graduated college I lived in the SF Bay area making $62k/year. I paid about $10k/year in student loans, and had enough left over for partying with drugs and alcohol 3 nights a week + other recreation. Take out the partying and student loans and I’m saving $20k per year on that salary easy. If I actually buckled down could have probably been closer to $30k. That experience, along with hearing how loose people are with money when they think theyre being frugal makes me very skeptical of others spending habits.
That’s another question, but nowadays the population is becoming concentrated in bigger cities. When I was a kid Ottawa was only 300,000 people and now it’s a few short of a million. If you live out in the country there are almost no jobs, you are going to get stuck working in a fast food restaurant or retail unless you own a business in most cases, which is why people are moving into the cities. Where my father is from there used to be a bunch of factories and car plants but most of that shut down, people are leaving the city, jobs are scarce and now crime is a problem. You could buy a house there for cheap but what are you going to do there?
You can’t buy anything here for under 300k.
It was better back when I was a kid, now the special ed kids are in regular classes. Most classes have a few autistic kids and such.
My kids go to school, today there is no school because the teachers’ unions are doing rotating strikes. A lot of their demands are unreasonable, and a lot of what the government is doing is unreasonable too, it’s not a good situation.
That’s the exact opposite of what they are doing here.
Maybe part of the problem with this discussion is that we are in different countries, we are right beside each other and things are similar but at the same time a lot of things are different.
Yeah but you were single, right? Here if you are single you would be fine making less than that, you would just have a hard time supporting a family.
Maybe part of the problem is that people’s goals and priorities have changed. If you want to have 5-6 kids and your wife stay home then maybe you could make it work if you are willing to accept a lower standard of living. But if you need all brand new stuff all the time and the latest technology then of course you won’t be satisfied.
My point was that I was single, but able to save enough to have supported a small family. And that was in a crazy expensive location.
And holy shit no, people should not expect to have 5-6 kids and a middle class life on $80k single income. Lol. People having kids they can’t afford fills me with rage, and is another topic for another day.
My maternal grandparents just scrapped by with 2 kids back in the 60s/70s. Grandpa was a lead charlift mechanic in the winter, KOA campground caretaker by summer. Grandma was an ER nurse. They would have been poor if there were 5-6 kids instead of only 2.
Idk where or when it was possible to support 6-7 non working people on a fairly average salary and live a middle class life. Maybe I’m out of touch with life 50 years ago, though.
It was better to have nothing for those kids? Why is being around an autistic kid bad? How would you feel if you had a kid with special needs and we said fuck your kid?
Yep people have no idea remembering what it was like. Dad was from a small Kansas town and they were pretty poor but not as poor as some around them. They didn’t wash their body daily because of the cost (dad) often ate what my grandpa hunted when he wasn’t already working as a lineman. And he still tells me stories of poor kids around him eating sugar sandwiches and mayonnaise sandwiches no meat.
An old janitor I worked with talked to some kids complaining that their lockers weren’t big enough. He said we didn’t even have lockers when I was a kid so be thankful. He also said his uncle wiped his ass sometimes with the Sears catalog because they didn’t always buy toilet paper.
Most of the people who are fondly trying to remember those better times would lose their shit if they jumped in a time machine and didn’t have the modern comforts they have today. Let alone the food options schools provide for impoverished children.
Like I said we always remember the good parts of those simpler times. We think it would be good to go back. I think most people would lose their goddamn minds.
My dad worked in the summer 12 hours for a farmer making a dollar an hour.
It was possible here. My grandfather on my father’s side owned a small farm until some time in the late 50’s or early 60’s, due to large companies squeezing out small farmers and other economic factors it was no longer a viable business. He sold the farm and worked on teh assembly line at a General Motors plant until he retired, and had 6 kids and a wife who stayed home. They weren’t poor either, regular middle class people.
You completely misunderstood what I meant, not need to throw a fit. They used to have “special ed” classes with a teacher who is specially trained to deal with kids who have certain issues and learning disabilities, and there was only about 5-10 kids per class becasue they needed extra attention. Now they don’t get any attention, and you have kids with whatever condition disrupting classes. Not that all autistic kids cause problems, but some do and some have conditions other than autism.
Someone I know has a friend who is a teacher that is on the verge of a nervous breakdown partly due to a couple of autistic kids in her class that are out of control. One of my kids has a girl in his class who can’t read or write (in grade 3) and is constantly causing trouble, throwing things, messing around with the other kids’ bags and jackets during class, the teacher tells the other kids to just ignore her because there is nothing else that can be done. Does this sound good to you?
That is basically what the government said to parents of autistic kids years ago, and that is what I am complaining about here.
Maybe things were way worse in the US back then than they were here. I have heard from some older people who grew up poor 60-70 years ago how it was and it wasn’t how you describe. It was pretty much the same as it is now just less technology. You still have families living with 10 people in a 2 bedroom house and don’t have a proper meal every day.