Iran Halted Nuke Program In '03

[quote]the muffin man wrote:
JeffR wrote:
dk44 wrote:
Then just go kill yourself.

Well put.

JeffR

Well put, the moron said.[/quote]

Hey, muffin man!!!

Please try to keep up. I know you’re busy with your fit-fat Dad binging on muffins and trying not to be overrun by caterpillars, but, the least you could do is keep my nicknames current.

I’m Jeffrina with a RudyRection.

saddam and al zarqawi are still dead (at last report).

I’m sorry, I don’t speak nonsense. Would you translate?

Dk44 isn’t saying that at all. He’s not generalizing. This is a very specific suggestion to a single person. No more, no less.

Most people would attempt to understand an issue prior to calling someone else a “moron.” Unless, of course, you are the muffin man.

In all fairness, I don’t think I’m in an armchair.

However, I wanted to point out how little progress you’ve made in your lines of attack. This is the same “attack” you’ve made forever. It has never gained any traction with me. I feel like I’m making a difference.

You, on the other hand. Wait, that’s not fair, the bakers and bug spray manufacturers probably love you.

JeffR

I didnt say anything about people who disagree with the war going off and killing themselves. I was clearly talking to Mazilla about his comment, but if you want to kill yourself too, I dont mind.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The world is now much more poor than in the 1960s.

Come again?[/quote]

I should explain this a little more: The standard of living for most people has gotten lower. A big reason is that raw human labor is becoming less a part of the end product. Therefore, the vast majority of humanity, which still relies upon their labor for their earnings, receives relatively less remuneration than does capital. One need only observe living conditions in 3rd world cities to see this.

About 350 million Chinese live a middle class life. One billion live in poverty. This is true throughout most of India and Africa. The Middle East also has huge pockets of poverty.

In a sense, Marx was correct over a span of centuries and in terms of nations — the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (he alludes to this in Vol 4 of Das Kapital). The process is exacerbated by restricting the flow of capital due to ‘nationalization’ and other such thievery.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Here’s the thing though. Technically, they may have suspended their weapons program, but they’re still intent on a civilian nuclear program.

And they have every right to do that.

Does anyone here honestly believe this civilian program isn’t a cover for advancing nuclear capabilities for the purpose of developing a bomb?

Yes, me. But that’s because I know the weight of a Fatwa by the Ayatollah of Iran. Also, there are plenty of civil nuclear programs that stayed that way (e.g: Sweden). Of course,
[/quote]

According to the WSJ and the Economist and everything else I’ve read, Iran doesn’t have nuclear reactors. So what possible need could they have for enriched uranium?

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
According to the WSJ and the Economist and everything else I’ve read, Iran doesn’t have nuclear reactors. So what possible need could they have for enriched uranium? [/quote]

I’m having trouble figuring out whether you’re seriously suggesting that Iran has no nuclear reactors, or are just trying to make a joke (which I apparently don’t get).

Sorry, let me be clearer then: according to my sources, Iran hasn’t a single working nuclear reactor.

Here’s a piece from The Economist that might be of some interest to you guys. ~katz


Iran’s nuclear programme

What’s not to celebrate?
Dec 6th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad thinks Iran is home free
Get article background

AS FAR as George Bush is concerned, �??Iran was dangerous, Iran is dangerous and Iran will be dangerous�?? if it gets sufficient knowledge to build a nuclear bomb. But his words this week were barely audible above the clamour detonated by a new National Intelligence Estimate (NIE), the collective judgement of all 16 of America’s intelligence agencies, that Iran had halted its nuclear weapons programme in the autumn of 2003. To Iran’s irrepressible president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the report was a �??great victory�??�??an own thumb-in-the-eye for the Great Satan.

At the very least, the spooks’ reassessment of Iran’s ongoing nuclear work seems likely to put a brake on already slow diplomatic efforts through the United Nations Security Council to pressure Iran into suspending its enrichment of uranium and its efforts to produce plutonium. Although a new resolution promising stiffer sanctions on Iran may still be circulated soon, both Russia and China say that the new NIE version of events means at a minimum a bit of a rethink.

Yet it’s a funny thing. Although the new judgement on Iran’s weapons work contradicts a 2005 NIE view that Iran was tinkering on regardless, the intelligence folk have not changed their prediction that Iran could have a nuclear weapon by around 2015. So does Iran have such military ambitions? And if so, why the presumed four-year pause?

When intelligence types talk of Iran’s weapons programme, what they mean is work to design a nuclear warhead, master the mechanics to make it go bang and covertly produce the highly-enriched uranium or plutonium for its explosive core. In 2002 much of Iran’s hitherto-secret uranium work, including its centrifuge-enrichment plant at Natanz, was exposed by an opposition group. Iran then came under mounting pressure to suspend such work and let in inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). The intense scrutiny, the intelligence analysts think, caused Iran to halt its other nefarious activities too.

Yet, as a leaked speech by a senior Iranian nuclear official later made clear, Iran was not abandoning enrichment, only ducking and weaving to get the world off its back. Uranium and plutonium work, it insists, are legal under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty�??for peaceful purposes. The enrichment go-slow ended abruptly in 2006, however, with the election of Mr Ahmadinejad. Iran now has 3,000 centrifuge machines up and running at Natanz.

Does that matter if all the other work has stopped? Producing enough plutonium or highly enriched uranium (power reactors use the low-enriched sort, but this can be enriched to weapons grade by running it through the centrifuges a few more times) is the chief obstacle to building a bomb. Halting the obviously illegal work, while pressing ahead with enrichment in plain sight would still leave Iran with a weapons option, argued George Perkovich of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington think-tank, back in 2005. The new NIE assessment comes to a similar conclusion.

Iran claims never to have had any intent to build weapons. The NIE disagrees. America is even more firmly convinced on the evidence it has obtained�??some of it quite recently�??that until 2003 Iran’s government was trying to build a nuclear weapon. It was �??probably worse than we thought�??, says Stephen Hadley, Mr Bush’s national security adviser.

It always was implausible that a country without a single working nuclear-power reactor would spend so heavily on, and be so secretive about, uranium enrichment. The IAEA still wants to know more about unexplained traces of highly enriched uranium found by inspectors and a document Iran had for years, but claims never to have made use of, showing how to shape uranium metal into hemispheres, a technique useful only for weapons. Inspectors also want Iran to account for drawings dated 2003 from a laptop provided to America by a defector the following year that show design work on a missile cone that could accommodate a nuclear warhead. Iran dismisses such evidence as �??baseless�??.

The latest NIE assessment expresses �??moderate confidence�?? that Iran’s weapons pause continues. Israel’s defence minister, Ehud Barak, this week begged to differ. He acknowledged that the odds on an eventual American military strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities have lengthened, but said Israel would not lower its guard �??because of an intelligence report from the other side of the world, even if it is from our greatest friend.�?? Intriguingly, while the director-general of the IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei, expressed himself pleased with the NIE reassessment, the New York Times quoted a senior official close to the agency as expressing more scepticism about what Iran is really up to.

So where does diplomacy go from here? The NIE suggests that the weapons pause may indicate more of a cost-benefit approach to Iran’s nuclear ambitions, and that some cleverer combination of scrutiny and pressure, combined with juicier offers to take account of Iran’s security, prestige and other goals might prompt its regime to steer clear of further weapons work�??though it could reverse course at any time. Yet that has been the basic diplomatic strategy all along: get Iran to halt enrichment and negotiate inducements, including co-operation on other advanced, but less dangerous, nuclear technologies, to make the suspension permanent. Mr Ahmadinejad firmly rules this out. Ironically, this week’s NIE will make it harder to muster the diplomatic wherewithal to press him to change his merry tune.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Stability in international investment occurs when some leading power stands just off stage waiting to crush those who would ruin it. The oil fields in Iran were found and developed by British and American oil companies. The oil companies made long-term contracts with Iran concerning those fields. No one will spend billions developing an oil field if it will just be confiscated.

The contracts were broken and somehow the oil fields suddenly became the property of the Iranians. This is theft. Without the oil companies, oil was something that poisoned the goats.

The world is now much more poor than in the 1960s. Poverty is accelerating esp in Africa. A big reason for this is that the Iranians were allowed to get away with their thievery. Investment around the globe in unstable areas has about dried up. No one will invest in Zimbabwe, for ex, because Mugabe will just grab it. He can do so because no one will clobber him for doing so. The poor people of the world suffer consequently.

Its easy to blame the USA for all the world’s problem. But those problems often come about because the USA actually wants to have laws and rules. Criminals usually do hate the ‘sheriff’ and come up with sundry reasons why he’s evil, he’s ‘Bushitler’, and all kinds of vile crap like that. They should really learn to become men instead.

[/quote]

It is hard to argue with your logic. But it rests on a very big moral assumption; that anything the guy with the big stick does is just. It assumes that the colonialism and collaboration with the Royal Family that established US and UK company ownership of Iranian resources was just. Contracts are agreements, yes? The ownership of Iranian oil reserves was not agreed upon, at least if the Iranian people count for anything. Do any British companies still hold claim to any American resources where the contract was signed pre-revolution?

How can you claim that the US wants laws and rules (a suggestion morality) in light of the strong line of continuity that shows the US government (not the people) supporting brutal regimes in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Guatemala, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Indonesia, and on, and on, and on. Please explain how laws and rules are what is desired rather than complete and utter compliance. Democracy and justice in the wilds of the world is an enormous barrier.

I don’t mean to be too harsh; at least you’re honest. You don’t claim to be acting under the influence of any moral truisms at all (the law of the jungle is not a moral truism) which is the case with nearly all imperialists.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Sorry, let me be clearer then: according to my sources, Iran hasn’t a single working nuclear reactor. [/quote]

Nuclear reactors aren’t rocket science nor voodoo magic. It’s fairly old technology. Iran’s first nuclear reactor was fully functional back in 1967. Then came the revolution and Saddam (armed and supported by the US and other countries) decided to attack Iran, destroying much of the country’s infrastructure.

Fast forward to today: Iran has several working nuclear reactors. That is probably the one point the IAEA, Tehran, and the international intelligence community agree upon. My guess is that you misunderstood or misinterpreted the Economist’s piece on the issue (can’t vouch for the latest acquisition of the Murdoch’s empire).

And in case you missed it, I suggest you get acquainted with the report referred to in the OP’s piece.

So, to come back to your what possible need could they have for enriched uranium? question, the Iranians, the IAEA and your very own CIA are saying it isn’t military. My personal opinion is that Tehran is enriching uranium to achieve independence from Russia at some point.

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
It always was implausible that a country without a single working nuclear-power reactor would spend so heavily on, and be so secretive about, uranium enrichment. [/quote]

Sloppy journalism. The author has some arbitrary power output threshold in mind.

Like it or not, Vespas have engines. Might not be as big nor as powerful as a A380’s, but it is an engine nonetheless.

Iran is nuclear country and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Bush/Cheney’s inflammatory rhetoric only consolidates the power of the regime in Tehran, undermines the progressives, and could convince the Iranian people that acquiring nukes might not be such a bad idea after all.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Bush/Cheney’s inflammatory rhetoric only consolidates the power of the regime in Tehran, undermines the progressives, and could convince the Iranian people that acquiring nukes might not be such a bad idea after all.[/quote]

So, what is your take on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Since you’re all about Iran, what’s your take on him and the hardliners who back him?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Bush/Cheney’s inflammatory rhetoric only consolidates the power of the regime in Tehran, undermines the progressives, and could convince the Iranian people that acquiring nukes might not be such a bad idea after all.

So, what is your take on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Since you’re all about Iran, what’s your take on him and the hardliners who back him? [/quote]

Ahmadinejad is backed by people in rural areas, as he is apparently the only candidate that campaigns there. He was elected on a populist platform of job creation and assistance to the rural folk. But it is necessary to mention that Ahmadinejad is not Iran’s real leader. That role is occupied by the Ayatollahs.

As a matter of fact Iranians have the same opinion on the nuclear question as Americans (about a 3/4 majority in both countries as of last spring). Iran has the right to a civilian nuclear program (in agreement with the nuclear non-proliferation treaty) but should not pursue nuclear weaponry. Both countries are against the use of threats and feel that the situation should be resolved diplomatically. Opinion in each country varies in conjunction with the level of threats and propaganda at the time.

Interesting that nearly all of the political players (including presidential candidates) involved in this situation are well to the right of both the American and Iranian publics. This disconnect phenomenon is well examined by Page and Bouton (2006).

[quote]lixy wrote:
Fast forward to today: Iran has several working nuclear reactors.
[/quote]

Lixy, you’re going to have to help me out here. I can’t seem to find any working nuclear reactors in Iran. You probably have much better sources than I. Thanks.

[quote]johnnybravo30 wrote:
But it is necessary to mention that Ahmadinejad is not Iran’s real leader. That role is occupied by the Ayatollahs.
[/quote]

So what’s the difference if there’s a moderate president or a conservitive nut job in office if his power means nothing?

What do you suppose the chances of the Ayatollahs becoming moderate are?

[quote]lixy wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:

Fast forward to today: Iran has several working nuclear reactors. That is probably the one point the IAEA, Tehran, and the international intelligence community agree upon. My guess is that you misunderstood or misinterpreted the Economist’s piece on the issue (can’t vouch for the latest acquisition of the Murdoch’s empire).


So, to come back to your what possible need could they have for enriched uranium? question, the Iranians, the IAEA and your very own CIA are saying it isn’t military. My personal opinion is that Tehran is enriching uranium to achieve independence from Russia at some point.[/quote]

Typical obfuscation.

  1. Iran is–and was, in 2003–in violation of the Nucelar Nonproliferation Treaty, a treaty which was affirmed by the regime of mullahs in 1985:

"In November 2003 IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei reported that Iran had repeatedly and over an extended period failed to meet with its safeguards obligations, including by failing to declare its uranium enrichment program.[26] After nearly two years of diplomatic efforts led by France, Germany and the UK, in September 2005, the IAEA Board of Governors, acting under Article XII.C of the IAEA Statute, found that these failures constituted non-compliance with the IAEA safeguards agreement, not the NPT itself.[27] The United States contends on this basis that Iran violated Article II as well as Article III of the NPT.[28] However, the December 2007 National Intelligence Estimate judged, with “high confidence,�?? that Iran had halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003, with “moderate confidence” that the program remained frozen, and with “moderate-to-high confidence” that Iran “is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons.””

  1. With 3000+ centrifuges, and targets chosen and missiles at the ready, the nuclear weapons program can be restarted on whim:

"Halting the obviously illegal work, while pressing ahead with enrichment in plain sight would still leave Iran with a weapons option, argued George Perkovich of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington think-tank, back in 2005. The new NIE assessment comes to a similar conclusion."

This is not sloppy journalism. This is not malign Murdoch propaganda. These are the opinions of thoughtful and responsible folks, however politicized one may think the NIE.

Only a real nutjob can contemplate a military action against Iran. (Sabotage is far more effective.)
But the current whiff of expediency, by which the NIE allows sanctions or diplomacy to fail, is simply cowardice writ large.

Lixy, here’s one of the many references in the WSJ to the (non)existence Iran’s nuclear reactors:

“Some in the U.S. and Europe worry that Iran is using the treaty’s cover to produce nuclear fuel that could someday be used for weapons, in part because Iran doesn’t have an operating nuclear-power plant and has plenty of other fuel sources available.”

From:

Behind the Iran-Intelligence Reversal
By NICK TIMIRAOS
December 8, 2007; Page A9

An extremely interesting piece - I’ll post if if you guys can’t get it.

It’s simple. They plan to advance the cause as far as they can through a civilian program. Delivery methods will be advanced through “conventional” programs, suppossedly to deliver “conventional” warheads. When the time is right, the world will wake up one day and see that Iran has just tested a nuclear weapon. The media will report it as if was actually news.

A regime already providing resources to Islamic terrorists, but now in possession of the ultimate deterrent. Gee, I wonder how much bolder they will become in using their proxies.

An interesting look at the situation by The Guardian: Intelligence expert who rewrote book on Iran | World news | The Guardian

It essentially says that the decision for a military strike agains Iran is very unlikely, with only Dick Cheny in favor. He’s a lonely voice since Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Douglas Feith and Donald Rumsfeld have given way to those who oppose war with Iran, including Robert Gates, the defence secretary and former CIA director, and the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice.

“What is happening is that foreign policy has swung back to the grown-ups. We are watching the collapse of the Bush doctrine in real time. The neoconservatives are howling because they know their influence is waning.”

Seems like the chickenhawks will have to look elsewhere for their daily pound of flesh and pint of blood.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
johnnybravo30 wrote:
But it is necessary to mention that Ahmadinejad is not Iran’s real leader. That role is occupied by the Ayatollahs.

So what’s the difference if there’s a moderate president or a conservitive nut job in office if his power means nothing?

What do you suppose the chances of the Ayatollahs becoming moderate are?[/quote]

Who the president happens to be isn’t entirely meaningless. He just doesn’t get the final say in matters that concern the Ayatollahs.

There is a broad variance in opinion amongst the Ayatollahs. Some are very hard-line and others are more reasonable, and some are more influential that others.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Seems like the chickenhawks will have to look elsewhere for their daily pound of flesh and pint of blood.[/quote]

Darn, now you’ve got nothing to bitch about.