Investing in Global Warming

[quote]Soco wrote:
1- You can only expect us to have the technologies in place if we make the investments now in developing them. Unless we prepare now and make the investments you can’t assume anything. [/quote]

Why? If they are not developed now they will never exist? Ever?

Seriously there are investments. I support those investments. But the driving force of technology really is wants and needs. If oil stays cheap then the technology will move slowly. But as prices jump, technology will move faster. Why? Because the need is there.

This is not some crazy idea, but proven time and time again. For example during WWI and WWII the needs of the world changed. These times produced massive technological change. If not for the wars, planes may have never developed as fast as they did.

It is good to prepare, but as needs arise, change will occur.

This was in response to you stating that the environment was worse off now then before. I didn’t know you were only referring to CO2. (Somehow I don?t think you really were.)

As far as polluting the environment in general, people used to be terrible about that. Garbage was dumped out of windows into the streets. Because of all the horses, streets were full of shit, literally. Imagine how cities smelled back then.

But if you are referring to CO2 as a pollutant, then you are polluting just by breathing. Realize that.

The apocalypse? Really? I never heard that before. I have heard that regulations drive up the cost of business, and that is true. While I don?t say there should be no regulation, too much can devastate our economy. If it costs more for us to produce an item then another country, because they don?t have the same regulations, which item do you think those people will buy?

Also this can cause inflation. Possibly excessively. Inflation has the effect of reducing the real value of a person?s income. And that has to be taken into account.

If all we looked at was the environment, the choices would be simple. But we cannot be so myopic in our view. We must take more into account then just the environment. The environmental effects of our actions need to be weighed against our economy. Neither should be ignored, but neither should be elevated at the complete expense of the other.

I presume you heard of the group of scientists who signed a document stating the dangers of global warming. But I doubt you heard about the larger group of scientists who signed a document putting down the ideas of the former.

You act as though all science points to one single conclusion and all scientists agree with that point of view, but that just is not true. Will global warming actually be bad or not? If bad, based on what? Also what exactly is the relation of CO2 and global warming? How exactly will a doubling of CO2 in the air effect world temperature? There are educated guesses, but truly nobody knows.

Did you know CFC’s are 10,000 times as strong as CO2 in global warming? These are important to reduce, which they have been. What else do they do? Destroy ozone, which is also a greenhouse gas. Also unlike CO2, it won?t be sucked up by plants. This is a situation where the environmental issue is more powerful then the economic aspect.

Also CFC levels will be dropping over the next 20 to 50 years, reducing a very powerful greenhouse gas.

And while you mention how “for the love of god” Russia has signed an accord, but you also forgot to mention that after the wall fell down, their industry has dropped, and they are producing 30% less CO2 then they did in 1990, and they are allowed to get up to 1990 levels. Meaning that according to this agreement, they are allowed to keep increasing their levels of CO2 production while everybody else (for the most part) has to reduce theirs. Why wouldn?t they sign it?

I am not saying that global warming is not true, nor that CO2 has an effect on it. What I am saying is that I don’t think it is as bad as you seem to be saying, and that the proof is not in that it is even bad at all.

Again I am only saying not to overreact. I have no problem with slowing down the production of CO2, and the development of renewable sources of energy. I think that would be great. But just like you said that reducing CO2 emissions will not lead to Armageddon, neither will a little more CO2 in the atmosphere.

[quote]Soco wrote:
Mage

okay on eline of that talked about melting the ice caps and scientists concluded that would be stupid. I agree with them that would be dumb.

Decreasing pollution and using renewable energy is not melting the icecaps. Don’t compare the two.

Besides eve if you refuse to accept climate change, there are other benefits. For example not having to go hang out in the middle east or propping up authoritarian regimes.

Then again that would be crazy too…[/quote]

This is where you are really misunderstanding me. I am all for renewable energy, and reducing CO2 emissions. But we don?t need to overreact, and destroy an economy to do it. It is being done, and will continue to be done in the future.

I have compact fluorescent light bulbs in my apartment which I estimate saves me about $5 a month. Solar and wind is now becoming competitive with oil. A few more advancements, and it will be cheaper to build a few windmills then more power plants.

As far as the Mid-East, oil is a big reason they have so much power, but don?t assume we went to war only for oil. I hope you are not attempting to spread that propaganda. Also who are we ?propping up? anyway? The only thing I know is that we preferred one regime to another, and that is logical. (I will stop here, but I believe I will end up having to clarify myself later when this is misunderstood.)

[quote]jodgey wrote:
Mage –
You newsweek article is very interesting. It is quite an authority on the environment. As you are too, I am quite sure.
As I am writing a paper right now on the environmental effects of Manufacturing processes, since I just completed my thesis on Boric Acid as an environmentally friendly solid lubricant. I know you want to push the theory that global warming does not exist, but why argue this point. I dont think anyone is rationally suggesting we melt the ice caps, but perhaps, just perhaps, reducing the overburdoning of gases into our atmosphere might, JUST MIGHT, be a good idea. Perhaps one, living in this country of technological excess and financial capability, should recognize that. Perhaps one should not fucking bitch the point that effects of our excessive gaseous dumping into our atmosphere dont exist because my politcal party told me so?

amazing. . . simply amazing. [/quote]

Your right, all Newsweek articles quoting scientists should be thrown out.

I never pushed the theory that global warming does not exist.

But since you “wrote a paper” then exactly how much CO2 does it take to push up the world temperature by 1 degree? No guesses, or estimates, I want the exact number and how you came up with that number.

Then I want to know exactly when we will get to that point, down to the year. Then I want to know exactly what the effects on our lives will be, not just conjecture, but the actual effects. Will life be worse or better?

And yes scientists were suggesting that the ice caps be melted. I didn?t just make that up, and neither did Newsweek. (At least I don?t think Newsweek make it up. I really doubt that.)

And since I belong to no political party, I can see that you jump to conclusions by assuming I do. And your statement about our “technological excess” shows how you are beholden to yours.

Please actually read what I am saying and not read your biases into my statements.

[quote]Soco wrote:
Look at my earlier post. Even the EPA under the Bush administration has accepted there is global warming and that it is most likely partly caused by man’s activity.

Anyway, I have thesis to revise later…

[/quote]

So Bush is now smart? I have to remember you said that.

Obviously there are going to be costs but sometimes those are overstated by industrialists who want to avoid doing any sort of regulation.

Think about the polar bears…

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/08/globalwarming.reut/index.html

Anyhow, I have a thesis to write. No more starting controversial threads for a month.

[quote]Soco wrote:
Obviously there are going to be costs but sometimes those are overstated by industrialists who want to avoid doing any sort of regulation.

Think about the polar bears…

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/08/globalwarming.reut/index.html

Anyhow, I have a thesis to write. No more starting controversial threads for a month.

[/quote]

Oh boy, another study.

Oh yeah, just because you say the industrialists “overstate” the costs does not make it true. Unless you have data that backs that statement up, I think it is full of hot air.

Read this link. (Yes read it.) This is from a site that tries to give more accurate information about global warming then what you get from the media.

http://globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=823

He basically says that all the studies are skewed because they all use an assumed 1% increase in CO2 emissions. While the actual amount of increase is 0.4%. In other words they are inflating the problem by a hundred and fifty percent (150%) above what is really happening, and that is what most of the “researchers” are doing.

The article has a link to The Cato Institute article entitled “Is Global Warming Always Bad?”

http://www.cato.org/dailys/11-07-04.html

It states that scientists are purposely pushing the fear of global warming just to help them gain research grants. In other words it is all about the money.

One more thing. I found out that while Bush has withdrawn for the Kyoto negotiations, he actually has not “unsigned” the deal.

another intelligent, informed individual bullied into silence…

[quote]gamehenge wrote:

another intelligent, informed individual bullied into silence…[/quote]

Hmmm. Interesting. In the article to which you link, the intelligent, informed individual denies your contention:

EPA Science Chief Stepped Down
After Election to Avoid ‘Spin’

By PETER WALDMAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
November 9, 2004; Page A8

Paul Gilman said he waited until last Wednesday to announce his resignation as top scientist at the Environmental Protection Agency because he didn’t want to be part of “somebody else’s spin” in the presidential campaign.

One of the Bush administration’s staunchest advocates for science over politics, Dr. Gilman was afraid that people might think he was quitting the government in protest, or that others might assume he had been forced out as a campaign scapegoat for President Bush’s science record.

Neither is the case, said Dr. Gilman, who accepted a post many weeks ago as head of a research consortium involving several universities. In fact, he said he enjoyed the “bare-knuckle scientific debates” during his three-year tenure at the science helm of the Bush EPA, and has his own theory about why they occurred. “The environment, post 9/11 and before the Kerry critique of Iraq, was a safe place for political battle,” he said.

Dr. Gilman fought plenty of battles himself, associates said. In one incident, he refused to publish, in an EPA report, a chapter on global warming that had been heavily rewritten by other federal agencies, because he said the EPA’s scientists disagreed with the revisions. Instead of including the chapter, the report referred to other federal studies on climate change – making it a lightning rod for criticism among environmentalists who accused the administration of censoring information on global warming.

“In retrospect,” Dr. Gilman said, “that may have been far too pragmatic on my part. By being silent on the issue, I didn’t think we were damaging any particular interpretation.”

A White House spokeswoman said the administration never suppressed information on global warming and in fact published more than 800 pages on the subject, in two reports. She said Mr. Bush is moving forward on a goal of reducing the U.S. economy’s so-called greenhouse-gas intensity by 18% by 2012.

She said allegations the administration favors special interests over science are false. “The administration seeks the best possible science to guide its decision making at every point,” she said.

EPA scientists praise Dr. Gilman for defending their work from attacks by industry and senior-level policy makers at the White House.

In particular, colleagues said, Dr. Gilman frequently clashed with White House regulatory czar John Graham – a cousin by marriage – whose background as a science consultant for industry has drawn heated criticism from health and environmental groups. For the first time, Dr. Graham hired his own staff of toxicologists at the White House Office of Management and Budget, posing inevitable challenges to the EPA and other regulatory agencies.

In response, Dr. Gilman channeled several of the EPA’s health-risk assessments – on high-stakes chemicals such as perchlorate, trichloroethylene and dioxin – to the National Academies of Sciences for review. The NAS panels give EPA scientists an impartial forum to defend their work, federal scientists say, away from the politicized scrutiny that goes on at the OMB and White House.

For his part, Dr. Graham praised Dr. Gilman as “tenacious, principled and effective,” while acknowledging the cousins had areas of “agreement and disagreement.”

Write to Peter Waldman at peter.waldman@wsj.com

“The 5-day forecast? Come on, lets not kid ourselves. If it really was a 5-day forecast, we’d only need it once a week, not at 5,6, and 10.”-Jerry Seinfeld

Insert “10-year” for 5-day

Very interesting, balanced article.

November 10, 2004

Two Sides to Global Warming
Is it proven fact, or just conventional wisdom?
Ronald Bailey

During more than 15 years of reporting on climate change science and policy, I have watched climatology become increasingly politicized. Most headlines and publicized scientific reports confirm that humanity is heating up the planet by burning fossil fuels that load the atmosphere with heat-trapping carbon dioxide.

Take just two reports from the last week. The Arctic Climate Impact Assessment report from the Arctic Council ( http://www.acia.uaf.edu/ ) found that Arctic warming is increasing twice as fast as elsewhere on the planet. This finding corresponds nicely with predictions made by various computer climate models that forecast that the poles should be warming faster than the rest of the planet.

Another new study from the journal Nature that seems to confirm this prediction finds that krill are declining in the frigid oceans around Antarctica ( Bloomberg - Are you a robot? ). Why? Evidently because the sea ice is declining, and krill live on the algae that live and grow on the underside of the sea ice.

These reports are confirming what the majority of climate scientists have been saying?that man-made global warming is occurring at a rapid rate.

Well, maybe. Once a particular notion becomes conventional wisdom, evidence and stories confirming that conventional wisdom are easily accepted and published?and reported in the media. Those that contradict the prevailing views have a much harder time getting a hearing. Either global warming has hardened into conventional wisdom in the climatological community, or mounting scientific evidence shows that humanity is in fact warming the world at a dangerous pace.

Which is it and how can one tell?

To show how hard answering that question can be, let’s take a little closer look at the two reports mentioned above. The Arctic Council report is based on the observations and deliberations of 300 scientists from eight countries and six groups of indigenous people over the past four years. They find that the Arctic region is warming at twice the rate of the rest of the world. They further find that the sea ice that covers the Arctic Ocean is thinning, and could almost disappear in the summer months by 2100.

But University of Alabama at Huntsville climatologist John Christy ( http://www.nsstc.uah.edu/atmos/christy.html ), a climate expert on whom I have relied for years, makes some interesting observations about the Arctic Council’s report. “If you look at the long term records, the Arctic has been as warm or warmer than it is today,” says Christy. He cites temperature data from the Hadley Centre in the UK showing that from 70 degrees north latitude to the pole, the warmest years on record in the Arctic were 1937 and 1938. This area is just slightly above the Arctic Circle. ( http://nsidc.org/arcticmet/basics/arctic_definition.html )

Furthermore, those same records show that the Arctic warmed twice as fast between 1917 and 1937 as it has in the past 20 years. After 1940, the Arctic saw a big cool-down and climatologists noted sea ice expanding in the northern Atlantic. Christy argues that what he calls the Great Climate Shift occurred in the late 1970s and caused another sudden warming in the Arctic. Since the late 1970s there has not been much additional warming in the region at all. In fact, on page 23, the Arctic Council Assessment offers very similar data for Arctic temperature trends from 60 degrees north latitude?the area that includes most of Alaska and essentially all of Greenland, most of Norway and Sweden, and the bulk of Russia.

Interestingly, the recent increase in temperatures in Alaska and Siberia seem to have coincided almost simultaneously with a shift in the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) in the late 1970s. Could this be part of Christy’s Great Climate Shift? Swings in the PDO occur on 30 to 40 year time frames, and the most recent one brought warmer currents flowing north to the coast of Alaska. The Assessment does note that “several important natural modes of variability that especially affect the Arctic have been identified, including the Arctic Oscillation ( http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/1999archive/12-99archive/k121699.html ), the Pacific Decadal Oscillation ( Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) | National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI) ), and the North Atlantic Oscillation ( Welcome to the North Atlantic Oscillation www-page ). Each of these can affect the regional patterns of such features as the intensity and tracks of storm systems, the direction of prevailing winds, the amount of snow, and the extent of sea ice.”

The Arctic Council report states that satellite measurements find the area over which ice melts in the summer in Greenland increased 16 percent between 1979 and 2002. Should the ice cap in Greenland completely melt away, sea levels would rise seven meters or so, inundating Florida, New York City, London, and Bangladesh. Not an immediate worry, since this process even with extreme warming would take centuries.

But what to make of the report earlier this year in the scientific journal Climate Change by Petr Chylek and his colleagues from the Los Alamos Laboratory, which found that average temperatures in Greenland have been falling at the rather steep rate of 2.2 degrees Celsius since 1987? ( http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/clim/2004/00000063/F0020001/05140445;jsessionid=1c5j0gvzund7i.henrietta )

In addition, the study found “summer temperatures, which are most relevant to Greenland ice sheet melting rates, do not show any persistent increase during the last fifty years.” Strangely, when I searched the Assessment I could not find any reference to the Chylek team’s study of Greenland temperature trends.

What about the report on the Antarctic krill? The shrimp-like krill are the foundation of the food chain in the oceans around Antarctica, being dined upon by whales, seals, fish, and penguins. The report finds that krill populations off the Antarctic Peninsula have declined by 80 to 90 percent in recent years. The study in Nature notes that the extent of winter sea ice has been declining near the Antarctic Peninsula, where temperatures have increased by 2.5 degrees Celsius over the past 50 years.

But again, the picture is complicated. Overall winter sea ice around Antarctica has been increasing since 1979. ( http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020820southseaice.html ) However, Antarctica experienced a very rapid decline in winter sea ice in the early 1970s and the area covered today is not quite as large as it was before the decline in the 1970s. ( http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/feature/2003/1105ice.html )

But the average temperatures for most of Antarctica outside of the Antarctic Peninsula have been declining since the mid-1960s. ( http://faldo.atmos.uiuc.edu/ANTARCTIC/ ) So is this evidence that the amount of warming predicted by computer climate models is wrong? Not so fast, say even some climatologists who report on the Antarctic cooling. ( Media goofed on Antarctic data / Global warming interpretation irks scientists ) They insist that their data do not overturn predictions of rapid global warming. Richard Lindzen ( http://paoc.mit.edu/paoc/people/person.asp?position=Faculty&who=lindzen ), a climatologist from MIT and a global warming skeptic, points out, “the Antarctic is not warming and there is nothing in the models that distinguish the temperature trends they predict in the Arctic from those in the Antarctic.” Climate is messy.

With so many researchers in the climatological community apparently convinced of the reality of dangerously rapid man-made climate change, why do I continue to rely so much on the skeptical Christy? Christy is the climatologist who has put together the highly accurate atmospheric temperature data from satellites since 1978. ( http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt ) And confidence in his data is bolstered by the fact that they correlate nicely with temperature data from radiosondes ( http://www.nam.org/s_nam/bin.asp?CID=527&DID=230808&DOC=FILE.PDF ), which are a completely independent measure of temperature. Christy’s data show that since 1978 the planet is warming up at a rate of 0.08 degrees Celsius per decade. The Arctic, according to Christy’s data, is indeed warming faster than the rest of the planet, at a rate of 0.39 per decade. But the Antarctic is cooling by 0.12 degrees Celsius per decade.

For the nationalistic, Christy’s satellite data find that the lower 48 states of the U.S. are warming at a rate of 0.07 degrees per decade. If temperatures continue to increase by 0.08 degrees Celsius per decade, the planet will warm by 0.8 degrees Celsius by the end of the century. That compares to an increase of 0.6 degrees Celsius during the 20th century ( http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/education/factsheets/planet.html ). Not much of a crisis. Richard Lindzen says he’s willing to take bets that global average temperatures in 20 years will in fact be lower than they are now.

So is dangerous rapid global warming merely the new conventional wisdom?or a credible forecast of our climatic future? There’s plenty of evidence for both positions, and I’ll keep reporting the data and the controversy.

Ronald Bailey is Reason’s science correspondent. His new book, Liberation Biology: A Moral and Scientific Defense of the Biotech Revolution will be published in early 2005.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
gamehenge wrote:

another intelligent, informed individual bullied into silence…

Hmmm. Interesting. In the article to which you link, the intelligent, informed individual denies your contention:

EPA Science Chief Stepped Down
After Election to Avoid ‘Spin’

By PETER WALDMAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
November 9, 2004; Page A8

Paul Gilman said he waited until last Wednesday to announce his resignation as top scientist at the Environmental Protection Agency because he didn’t want to be part of “somebody else’s spin” in the presidential campaign.

One of the Bush administration’s staunchest advocates for science over politics, Dr. Gilman was afraid that people might think he was quitting the government in protest, or that others might assume he had been forced out as a campaign scapegoat for President Bush’s science record.

Neither is the case, said Dr. Gilman, who accepted a post many weeks ago as head of a research consortium involving several universities. In fact, he said he enjoyed the “bare-knuckle scientific debates” during his three-year tenure at the science helm of the Bush EPA, and has his own theory about why they occurred. “The environment, post 9/11 and before the Kerry critique of Iraq, was a safe place for political battle,” he said.

Dr. Gilman fought plenty of battles himself, associates said. In one incident, he refused to publish, in an EPA report, a chapter on global warming that had been heavily rewritten by other federal agencies, because he said the EPA’s scientists disagreed with the revisions. Instead of including the chapter, the report referred to other federal studies on climate change – making it a lightning rod for criticism among environmentalists who accused the administration of censoring information on global warming.

“In retrospect,” Dr. Gilman said, “that may have been far too pragmatic on my part. By being silent on the issue, I didn’t think we were damaging any particular interpretation.”

A White House spokeswoman said the administration never suppressed information on global warming and in fact published more than 800 pages on the subject, in two reports. She said Mr. Bush is moving forward on a goal of reducing the U.S. economy’s so-called greenhouse-gas intensity by 18% by 2012.

She said allegations the administration favors special interests over science are false. “The administration seeks the best possible science to guide its decision making at every point,” she said.

EPA scientists praise Dr. Gilman for defending their work from attacks by industry and senior-level policy makers at the White House.

In particular, colleagues said, Dr. Gilman frequently clashed with White House regulatory czar John Graham – a cousin by marriage – whose background as a science consultant for industry has drawn heated criticism from health and environmental groups. For the first time, Dr. Graham hired his own staff of toxicologists at the White House Office of Management and Budget, posing inevitable challenges to the EPA and other regulatory agencies.

In response, Dr. Gilman channeled several of the EPA’s health-risk assessments – on high-stakes chemicals such as perchlorate, trichloroethylene and dioxin – to the National Academies of Sciences for review. The NAS panels give EPA scientists an impartial forum to defend their work, federal scientists say, away from the politicized scrutiny that goes on at the OMB and White House.

For his part, Dr. Graham praised Dr. Gilman as “tenacious, principled and effective,” while acknowledging the cousins had areas of “agreement and disagreement.”

Write to Peter Waldman at peter.waldman@wsj.com[/quote]

I don’t know Barrister… on the surface he says he’s out on his own volition, but the fact that he’s butted heads with the administration for years screams otherwise (see also: Colin Powell). seems to me like he’s playing the good solider.

[quote]gamehenge wrote:

another intelligent, informed individual bullied into silence…

BostonBarrister wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting. In the article to which you link, the intelligent, informed individual denies your contention:

gamehenge wrote:
I don’t know Barrister… on the surface he says he’s out on his own volition, but the fact that he’s butted heads with the administration for years screams otherwise (see also: Colin Powell). seems to me like he’s playing the good solider.[/quote]

There tends to be a lot of turnover in administrations as a general rule. Bush’s nominees have already, on average, served longer – I believe I’ve read that the average for Secretaries and sub-level secretaries is just under 2 years. Generally, these posts are opportunities, not careers. This is because these posts demand a lot of time and energy, and because after serving in these posts, people can generally go out and make a hell of a lot more money in the private sector.

So, seeing someone resign after serving over twice the average length doesn’t seem to me to indicate that he is being forced out, especially when he says he isn’t being forced out. People who are forced out write books…

I’m sorry, but I’m confused. CO2 is Carbon Dioxide. Human beings and all other mammals exhale CO2 every single day. Plants use the CO2 to grow and they, in turn give us O2 (Oxygen) so we can survive. These theories don’t make sense, unless because there are less plants in the world due to our destroying wildlife for development. CO is Carbon Monoxide. That is what is emitted from car exhausts which is a poisonous gas. I have a hard time believing every Global Warming theory that comes out because they all seem to contradict each other. We probably are killing ourselves, but chances are, none of us will be alive to feel the effects anytime soon. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Global warming is occurring on Mars:

http://www.blog.speculist.com/archives/000145.html

I blame Halliburton, and its conspiracy to defeat the Kyoto Protocols and deliver the election to the Republicans by rigging vote machines in New Mexico [or maybe it was the aliens in Roswell…]

You see, man? I warned you guys about those damn aliens. Now they’re screwing up Mars, too.