Investing a Small Amount

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
I have a question If someone buys stock now at a low price will it eventually rise?

mmm, when you think about it, it’s actually kind of irrelevant. Market price is decided by what people think it’s worth, and people are idiots.

If you invest in a company that is somehow able to increase earnings by exactly 10% every year, what does this mean?

Ok, say current earnings are $1/share, and it’s trading at $10/share, the price to earnings ratio (P/E) is $10/$1, or 10.

If earnings keep increasing at 10%/year, in 20 years, they will be $1*(1+0.10)^20, or $6.73. Assuming people still feel the same way about the company, and the P/E is still 10, shares should now be trading at 10*$6.73, or $67.30/share.

What if the P/E drops to 5? the stock price is now only 33.64 but who cares? You are still earning $6.73 per share.

Also for people who hold stocks over long periods of time what type of problems would they face? Obviously it can and will fluctuate in price but, how can you lose your shares completley? the company goes belly up?

I am 19yrs old and would really like to learn how to invest. Books, advice, anything would be helpfull.

Absolutely. If the company fails, you can lose all (or a big chunk) of the money you’ve invested. In general, the greater the risk of this happening, the greater the rate of return will have to be.

To start with, read an intro to corporate finance textbook.[/quote]

When learning is it better to stick to textbooks or is using books (intelligent investor) better? What are some good textbooks? I ask because in my online reading, I have read that many people, once hired are taught the correct way (good habits)but this might be for traders and not investors.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
I have a question If someone buys stock now at a low price will it eventually rise?

mmm, when you think about it, it’s actually kind of irrelevant. Market price is decided by what people think it’s worth, and people are idiots.

If you invest in a company that is somehow able to increase earnings by exactly 10% every year, what does this mean?

Ok, say current earnings are $1/share, and it’s trading at $10/share, the price to earnings ratio (P/E) is $10/$1, or 10.

If earnings keep increasing at 10%/year, in 20 years, they will be $1*(1+0.10)^20, or $6.73. Assuming people still feel the same way about the company, and the P/E is still 10, shares should now be trading at 10*$6.73, or $67.30/share.

What if the P/E drops to 5? the stock price is now only 33.64 but who cares? You are still earning $6.73 per share.

Also for people who hold stocks over long periods of time what type of problems would they face? Obviously it can and will fluctuate in price but, how can you lose your shares completley? the company goes belly up?

I am 19yrs old and would really like to learn how to invest. Books, advice, anything would be helpfull.

Absolutely. If the company fails, you can lose all (or a big chunk) of the money you’ve invested. In general, the greater the risk of this happening, the greater the rate of return will have to be.

To start with, read an intro to corporate finance textbook.

When learning is it better to stick to textbooks or is using books (intelligent investor) better? What are some good textbooks? I ask because in my online reading, I have read that many people, once hired are taught the correct way (good habits)but this might be for traders and not investors.
[/quote]

books like “Security Analysis” and “The Intelligent Investor” will make much, much more sense if you have some idea what they are talking about. That’s why I suggest getting familiar with intro to finance and intro to accounting first. I don’t have my textbooks anymore (I moved a couple of years ago, and they didn’t make the cut), but really anything that’s used in a university introductory class will do.

No idea what you mean in terms of habits.

From Jonathan Clements at the WSJ

[i]And It All Comes Down to This…
April 6, 2008

This is a moment for lush prose and lofty thoughts. But instead, you’ll have to settle for another of my lists.

In eight days, I start work as director of financial education for a new Wall Street advisory service geared toward ordinary investors. That means this is my last column for The Wall Street Journal Sunday – and, I’ve got to tell you, I’m feeling the pressure.

What should I say in these remaining 800 words? How can I keep you on track in the years ahead? Here, culled from my two decades as a personal-finance writer, are eight simple suggestions.

1 Embrace humility. Yes, there will always be investment icons like Warren Buffett, who are celebrated for their market-beating prowess. But what’s really striking is how few Warren Buffetts there are.

Over a lifetime of investing, extraordinarily few investors outperform the market averages and, indeed, most lag far behind.

Contemplating a big investment bet? Never forget that when you’re buying, somebody’s selling – and he or she may be a professional money manager with a business degree, a high-powered computer and access to the latest market research.

2 Control what you can. If you shouldn’t waste time trying to outguess your fellow investors, what should you do? Focus on the things you truly can control.

Minimize your investment tax bill, by maxing out on retirement accounts and buying tax-efficient funds in your taxable account. Limit your risk, by building yourself a globally diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds. Hold down investment costs and guarantee you capture the markets’ performance, by purchasing low-expense index funds.

3 Save yourself. Maybe most important, control your spending. During my 13½ years as the Journal’s personal-finance columnist, I have corresponded with thousands of ordinary folks who have amassed seven-figure portfolios. Some were savvy investors. But almost all were diligent savers.

To be sure, socking away money can be a frustrating business. At first, your portfolio’s growth will seem agonizingly slow. But if you save 12% or 15% of your income every year for maybe 15 years, your annual investment gains will start dwarfing your annual savings – and suddenly you will be on the fast track to financial independence.

4 Put pen to paper. Write down what percentage of your portfolio you want invested in different market sectors, such as large U.S. stocks, emerging markets, high-quality bonds and so on.

This simple exercise is enormously powerful. Your written asset allocation is both a roadmap for your portfolio and also a reminder – when markets sink and your confidence slumps – of the strategy you committed to in calmer times.

5 Keep your balance. That brings me to another simple but powerful strategy: rebalancing.

When stocks plunge, your instinct may be to cut and run. Yet you ought to be buying – and rebalancing compels you to do just that. The notion: Occasionally calculate your portfolio’s current allocation, compare that to your written percentages and then buy and sell to bring your investments back in line with your target mix.

6 Take comfort. Bucking the crowd and buying during declines is a whole lot easier if you bear in mind that stocks aren’t mere pieces of paper, but rather a claim on the vigor of U.S. and foreign economies.

Economic growth drives up corporate earnings which, in turn, propel share prices higher. True, stocks sometimes race ahead of corporate earnings and sometimes they trail behind. Eventually, however, economic fundamentals prevail – and long-term investors are rewarded.

7 Think big. Savvy money management may be about securing the right mortgage and selecting the right funds. But it’s also about seeing the big picture.

If your pension will cover most of your retirement living expenses, you probably don’t need much in bonds. If you’re carrying a credit-card balance costing 13%, it doesn’t make sense to stick your extra cash in a savings account earning 3%. If half your money is in bonds yielding 5%, you shouldn’t bank on 10% portfolio returns.

In addition, think about the link between your finances and the rest of your life. If you’re saving dutifully for a 30-year retirement, you should probably exercise, so your body lasts almost as long. If you have children, your life will likely be richer – but you will find it awfully tough to retire early.

8 Take the long view. As you might gather from all of the above, sensible money management is pretty simple. But it isn’t easy.

Our plans to save get derailed by impulse purchases. Our long-term strategy is tossed aside in panicky investment decisions. Yet, a year from now, last month’s market turmoil will be a distant memory and this weekend’s impulse purchases will be gathering dust.

My advice: Strive mightily to take the long view. We all want a secure financial future. Saving regularly, low investment costs and broad diversification will get us there. Tempted to stray? Banish such thoughts – and keep your eyes fixed firmly on the prize.[/i]

Well, I am a big fan of Warren Buffett’s rational approach to investing, and there are quite a lot of Buffett disciples who get similarly consistent great returns, or even better due to smaller amounts of money to invest.

The reason most investors lag the market is because they dabble in things they don’t understand, and they let their emotions dictate what they do with their money (fear or greed).

Asset allocation and portfolio rebalancing are two incredibly common strategies of Modern Portfolio Theory that are just symptoms of investing without understanding.

I would rather follow Buffett’s market-beating approach than Clement’s, which, while not awful, is mediocre. However, Clement is probably right that many are not cut out to follow in Buffett’s footsteps because rational investing takes work and discipline.

Alright so I’m currently reading The Intelligent Investor.

Any other books I should pick up, particularly pertaining to learning about Roth IRA’s?

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Alright so I’m currently reading The Intelligent Investor.

Any other books I should pick up, particularly pertaining to learning about Roth IRA’s?[/quote]

There’s a lot of good stuff on fool.com and money.cnn.com, I’d start there.

Thanks tedro.

From what a gather, index funds seem to be the best strategy for the long-term non-professional investor.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
From what a gather, index funds seem to be the best strategy for the long-term non-professional investor.[/quote]

My cousin told me after doing a 4 year degree in finance with all the formula’s and what not, they basically summed it up as “buy the market”, and cherry pick a few individual stocks. I don’t see anything wrong with buy a whole fund which has had a good average percentage for the past 50 years, as it will more than likely to continue to produce good results.

Or maybe not…so much to learn.

Good thing I have intro to accounting and finance classes over the 6 months.

Index funds are definitely the way to go, even for experienced investors. What you MAY gain by picking individual stocks will quickly be lost in broker fees.

Thats what it seems like.

Well I’d like to open a Roth IRA, which I know allows for diversification and such. What I don’t understand is its interest rate. When people talk about it collecting 10% a year are they talking about just cash you put in the account or are they talking about the average returns of the investments they do within their IRA.

If one claimed that their IRA went up 10% last year, that would mean that the rate of return on their entire investment for that year was 10%. The cash they put into that account that year does not count towards this 10%, but the return on this cash does.

For example, If my account was worth 1000, a year ago and it went up 10%, it’s now worth 1100. If my account was worth 1000 and I invested an additional 500 a year ago on that same day, it would now be worth 1650, and it was still a 10% rate of return.

If my account was worth 1000 a year ago, went up 10%, and I put in that 500 today, it would be worth 1600.

When you invest in the middle of the year it complicates the computations a bit, but the basic idea is the same. This is known as time-weighted rate of return.

Does this answer your question?

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Thats what it seems like.

Well I’d like to open a Roth IRA, which I know allows for diversification and such. What I don’t understand is its interest rate. When people talk about it collecting 10% a year are they talking about just cash you put in the account or are they talking about the average returns of the investments they do within their IRA.[/quote]

The Roth IRA is a type of tax-advantaged investment account, not an investment in and of itself. You can buy your investments - stock, bonds, CDs, etc. - with money you’ve contributed to your Roth IRA.

With a Roth IRA, you contribute after-tax dollars (so no deduction on your income for your income tax the year you make the contribution, as opposed to a traditional IRA or 401(k) for which you would get the deduction), but when you take the money out upon retirement (and this is important - you can’t take it out early without owing a penalty on your gains), your gains won’t be subject to tax (again, distinguishing from a traditional IRA or 401(k), for which your gains are taxed as income when they come out, as opposed to taxed as capital gains).

When people talk about an investment’s rate of return, they are usually referring to a composite of the capital gains (unrealized, unless you sell) and any dividends, interest or other coupon that the investment might pay. So if you invested $100 in an S&P ETF, and you had an unrealized capital gain of 5% and dividends of 2%, you’d say you had a pre-tax 7% rate of return on the investment. If you’re in a Roth, you don’t need to worry about taxes, as they wouldn’t apply; if you’re in a taxable account, you’d owe 15% of your 2% dividends to the tax man - and if you sold your ETF, you’d owe on the realized capital gain (which would be taxed at 15% if you held the ETF for at least a year - otherwise, taxed at your regular income tax rate).

As tedro noted, the rate of return is usually expressed on an annual basis, and people are usually talking about the pre-tax rate of return (particularly in any investment literature you may be perusing).

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
As tedro noted, the rate of return is usually expressed on an annual basis, and people are usually talking about the pre-tax rate of return (particularly in any investment literature you may be perusing).[/quote]

To add to this, they are also typically talking about the nominal rate of return, as opposed to the real rate of return which takes inflation into account. Confused yet?

My investments were pretty flat last year, throw in a jump in the consumer price index of 4.1% and that doesn’t look too good.

I just shudder to think what Balbos could do with $3k.

DB

Put it in a CD account for 5 yrs… get the return from it, meanwhile go to barnes and nobles…

get

trading for dummies
technical analysis made easy

and pick up a few books on forex

trade forex and options.

thank me when you’re pulling down 20k a month.

Not confused, ya’ll have been very informative thankyou.

I know nominal/real etc etc. I am a business intent student and lucky me is starting finance major/business school next fall.

BB and Tedro good explanations.

I was confused on whether or not the Roth was an investment in and of itself. Which I know understand is really just the account you use to invest. And I gather the advantage of using this type of account is the different options and that tax benefits.

I was confused about whether or not opening a Roth was like buying CD’s on steroids (referring to the interest rates).

But I’m catching the drift better now.

I’m 18 (19) next month, and my goal is to be well read enough by my 20th birthday to start investing, because from what I’ve seen, starting at say 25 instead of 20 can cost you a hell of a lot of money you could have accumulated through interest in the long run.

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Put it in a CD account for 5 yrs… get the return from it, meanwhile go to barnes and nobles…

get

trading for dummies
technical analysis made easy

and pick up a few books on forex

trade forex and options.

thank me when you’re pulling down 20k a month.[/quote]

Do you make 20k a month?

And Xen Nova, I already have some CD’s I bought a few years ago maturing. I do believe they are 5 years or I may have staggered and bought 10s and 5s, I’ll have to check on that.

But I still have money in a regular savings account and a checking account with more than enough assets. Particularly with my work lined up in school next year, I can afford to invest a couple thousand a year over the next few years. Like I said, starting at 20 can make me a hella lot more money (in the long run) than starting at 25-28.

I like the IRA because I’ll looking to invest said money in the long term, I’m not looking to try to beat the market as I know several people who have made lots of money and subsequently lost far more than they started with, simply because they were your typical, non well read investor who wanted to play on the hottest trends and do the guesswork.

Since I can afford not to have the money available, looking into a Roth and diversifying among Index funds, perhaps some staggered gov’t bonds/CD’s etc seems to be a smarter choice for providing safety nets and using investing as a long term strategy.