Investing a Small Amount

[quote]Mr2Geez wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Mr2Geez wrote:

  1. Diversifying can actually increase portfolio returns and reduce total risk at the same time depending on the correlation of the individual investments.

Diversifying can increase returns at a given level of risk, sure. But that’s not the same thing as just “increasing returns”. If an investment is expected to give me 20%, investing in uncorrelated (or negatively correlated) investments expected to yield 15% may substantially decrease my risk (and would be a brilliant move), but would not necessarily “increase my returns”.

  1. Anyone who claims they can get an “extremely low-risk” 15% return is living in a fantasy world or is involved in an illegal activity.

I have no doubt that you’ve mastered modern portfolio theory, but this is an ignorant statement. Buffett has said that, were he managing $1 million, he is sure he could get returns of over 50%/year. I’m inclined to believe him, considering his CAGR managing tens of billions.

I am no master of modern portfolio theory, but I don’t need to be in order to be skeptical of an extremely low-risk 15% return. I am not saying it is impossible to achieve that type of return, just that it is not low risk. Buffett stated that he could get 50%/year managing <$1MM by investing in small-cap value stocks. In what risk/return distribution is small-cap value on the extremely low end?

Perhaps I’m wrong, in which case I’d love to open an account with you.

[/quote]

After I finish the doctorate, and I open the holding company, I’ll let you know =P

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
I have a question If someone buys stock now at a low price will it eventually rise?

mmm, when you think about it, it’s actually kind of irrelevant. Market price is decided by what people think it’s worth, and people are idiots.

If you invest in a company that is somehow able to increase earnings by exactly 10% every year, what does this mean?

Ok, say current earnings are $1/share, and it’s trading at $10/share, the price to earnings ratio (P/E) is $10/$1, or 10.

If earnings keep increasing at 10%/year, in 20 years, they will be $1*(1+0.10)^20, or $6.73. Assuming people still feel the same way about the company, and the P/E is still 10, shares should now be trading at 10*$6.73, or $67.30/share.

What if the P/E drops to 5? the stock price is now only 33.64 but who cares? You are still earning $6.73 per share.

Also for people who hold stocks over long periods of time what type of problems would they face? Obviously it can and will fluctuate in price but, how can you lose your shares completley? the company goes belly up?

I am 19yrs old and would really like to learn how to invest. Books, advice, anything would be helpfull.

Absolutely. If the company fails, you can lose all (or a big chunk) of the money you’ve invested. In general, the greater the risk of this happening, the greater the rate of return will have to be.

To start with, read an intro to corporate finance textbook.

When buying stocks to hold on to them, why do people just now make the same buys that someone like Warren Buffet does?

Also this will not be for a while but when buying stock what are some good places to do this with? full service brokers? or would an online broker like e-trade be good enough?[/quote]

Read for now. Don’t worry about buying anything until you get an understanding of what you’re doing and why.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
I have a question If someone buys stock now at a low price will it eventually rise?

Also for people who hold stocks over long periods of time what type of problems would they face? Obviously it can and will fluctuate in price but, how can you lose your shares completley? the company goes belly up?

I am 19yrs old and would really like to learn how to invest. Books, advice, anything would be helpfull.[/quote]

99% of investors would do best to buy a diversified portfolio of assets based on low-cost indexed mutual funds or ETFs, allocated to sector according to risk preference and time horizon (sticking with indexes should keep your management fees and tax bills to a minimum). Rebalance (i.e., buy and/or sell to move yourself back to your original percentage allocations for your asset categories) once or twice per year. Transaction costs suck, so don’t trade often (probably not at all outside of the rebalancing) and use the lowest-cost broker you can find. If you really need financial advice, look for a planner who charges by the hour, and then see him once and set up a plan - don’t go again until your circumstances change (marriage, baby, etc.).

Here’s an article on building a diversified portfolio from Jonathan Clements at the WSJ (NB, I’d say allocate a small % (<5%) of your portfolio to a commodities ETF, though getting one now would be going in at a high point):

[i]What Your Portfolio Really Needs
By JONATHAN BURTON
August 15, 2007; Page D1

Feeling whipsawed by this market? It’s times like these when a diversified portfolio is supposed to pay off. But with so many exotic choices out there, it’s hard to know what diversification really means.

These days, what happens on Wall Street doesn’t stay there. Gyrating U.S. stocks affect Europe, Asia and elsewhere, as has been painfully evident recently to investors seeking shelter from the markets’ torrential storms.

So why diversify? Two words: risk control.

Diversification keeps several pots simmering at once. It’s a curious fact that adding riskier assets to a portfolio actually makes it safer. The key is how much of each ingredient you use. Ultimately that depends on your taste, but if Julia Child had been an investment adviser, she would have told you that a little spice goes a long way. Putting 5% of a portfolio in emerging-market stocks and 5% in real estate, for example, has been shown to boost returns and lower volatility.

It turns out that when viewed over many years, markets aren’t so intertwined after all. Stocks in the U.S. and other developed countries take independent paths, and emerging economies are in another orbit. Stocks have even looser ties to bonds, real estate, commodities and other alternative investments.

Your options, however, seem endless. Some tap vital markets; others are just clever marketing. Confused? Here’s what you really need to diversify, what’s nice to have and what you can do without.

  • Need to have. Stocks: Fundamentals apply. Own shares of large and small companies – only now when you buy locally, think globally. The big companies in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index, for example, generate almost half of their sales outside of the U.S.

With a conservative allocation of 60% stocks, for example, give brand-name S&P 500 stocks 35% of the portfolio and small caps 5%. Then earmark 15% to an international index fund that holds companies of all sizes, plus another 5% to a geographically dispersed emerging-markets fund.

Bonds: The subprime mortgage mess is tainting bonds. Avoid trouble by investing in U.S. government bonds and other top-quality issues. Bonds provide regular income, so they’re a terrific diversifier, and over time show decent returns. Long-term Treasurys, for example, have delivered three-fourths of the S&P 500’s 11.7% annualized gain since 1989 with about 60% of stocks’ volatility, says Ibbotson Associates.

Bond prices fall when interest-rates rise, and vice versa. Longer-dated bonds are susceptible to rate changes, while short-term issues are insulated. Cover yourself with a “laddered” strategy of one-, three-, five- and 10-year debt. Consider Treasury Inflation Protected Securities, or TIPS, which unlike most bonds will hold their value as the cost of living climbs.

“Have the core of your portfolio in stock index funds and bond index funds,” says John Bogle, founder of mutual-fund giant Vanguard Group. “That’s the way you will capture the largest percentage of returns that a business earns.”

  • Nice to have. Real estate: Home ownership is probably enough real estate for most of us. But property does act differently from other investments. A 5% stake in a mutual fund or exchange-traded fund that owns real-estate stocks or real-estate investment trusts should do the job. Again, think globally – the world is getting wealthier, and as the saying goes, they’re not making any more land.

  • Don’t really need. Sector funds: Buying a surging sector is tempting, but such bets can turn against you quickly. “Be involved in profitable businesses around the world regardless of what’s hot and what’s not,” says Kacy Gott, a financial adviser in San Francisco. “Don’t chase sectors. That’s not for investors; that’s for traders.”

Gold: It insures against financial catastrophe and marches to its own drum. But as an investment, short-term risk is high and long-term reward is marginal. If you want gold, buy jewelry.

Other commodities: This is a controversial call, for good reason. The price of so-called hard assets is soaring. China, India and other fast-growing countries need oil, natural gas, metals and materials to fuel development. Demand for agricultural products is also high.

You can play this trend with funds or ETFs that own a basket of commodities, and yes, you’ll get diversification. But in truth, you’ll do fine without direct exposure.

“Commodities are way overhyped as an asset class,” says Jeremy Siegel, a Wharton School finance professor. Instead, he’d buy stock in oil producers, mining companies and other businesses that stand to profit from this global boom.[/i]

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
I have a question If someone buys stock now at a low price will it eventually rise?

Also for people who hold stocks over long periods of time what type of problems would they face? Obviously it can and will fluctuate in price but, how can you lose your shares completley? the company goes belly up?

I am 19yrs old and would really like to learn how to invest. Books, advice, anything would be helpfull.

99% of investors would do best to buy a diversified portfolio of assets based on low-cost indexed mutual funds or ETFs, allocated to sector according to risk preference and time horizon (sticking with indexes should keep your management fees and tax bills to a minimum). Rebalance (i.e., buy and/or sell to move yourself back to your original percentage allocations for your asset categories) once or twice per year. Transaction costs suck, so don’t trade often (probably not at all outside of the rebalancing) and use the lowest-cost broker you can find. If you really need financial advice, look for a planner who charges by the hour, and then see him once and set up a plan - don’t go again until your circumstances change (marriage, baby, etc.).

Here’s an article on building a diversified portfolio from Jonathan Clements at the WSJ (NB, I’d say allocate a small % (<5%) of your portfolio to a commodities ETF, though getting one now would be going in at a high point):

[i]What Your Portfolio Really Needs
By JONATHAN BURTON
August 15, 2007; Page D1

Feeling whipsawed by this market? It’s times like these when a diversified portfolio is supposed to pay off. But with so many exotic choices out there, it’s hard to know what diversification really means.

These days, what happens on Wall Street doesn’t stay there. Gyrating U.S. stocks affect Europe, Asia and elsewhere, as has been painfully evident recently to investors seeking shelter from the markets’ torrential storms.

So why diversify? Two words: risk control.

Diversification keeps several pots simmering at once. It’s a curious fact that adding riskier assets to a portfolio actually makes it safer. The key is how much of each ingredient you use. Ultimately that depends on your taste, but if Julia Child had been an investment adviser, she would have told you that a little spice goes a long way. Putting 5% of a portfolio in emerging-market stocks and 5% in real estate, for example, has been shown to boost returns and lower volatility.

It turns out that when viewed over many years, markets aren’t so intertwined after all. Stocks in the U.S. and other developed countries take independent paths, and emerging economies are in another orbit. Stocks have even looser ties to bonds, real estate, commodities and other alternative investments.

Your options, however, seem endless. Some tap vital markets; others are just clever marketing. Confused? Here’s what you really need to diversify, what’s nice to have and what you can do without.

  • Need to have. Stocks: Fundamentals apply. Own shares of large and small companies – only now when you buy locally, think globally. The big companies in the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index, for example, generate almost half of their sales outside of the U.S.

With a conservative allocation of 60% stocks, for example, give brand-name S&P 500 stocks 35% of the portfolio and small caps 5%. Then earmark 15% to an international index fund that holds companies of all sizes, plus another 5% to a geographically dispersed emerging-markets fund.

Bonds: The subprime mortgage mess is tainting bonds. Avoid trouble by investing in U.S. government bonds and other top-quality issues. Bonds provide regular income, so they’re a terrific diversifier, and over time show decent returns. Long-term Treasurys, for example, have delivered three-fourths of the S&P 500’s 11.7% annualized gain since 1989 with about 60% of stocks’ volatility, says Ibbotson Associates.

Bond prices fall when interest-rates rise, and vice versa. Longer-dated bonds are susceptible to rate changes, while short-term issues are insulated. Cover yourself with a “laddered” strategy of one-, three-, five- and 10-year debt. Consider Treasury Inflation Protected Securities, or TIPS, which unlike most bonds will hold their value as the cost of living climbs.

“Have the core of your portfolio in stock index funds and bond index funds,” says John Bogle, founder of mutual-fund giant Vanguard Group. “That’s the way you will capture the largest percentage of returns that a business earns.”

  • Nice to have. Real estate: Home ownership is probably enough real estate for most of us. But property does act differently from other investments. A 5% stake in a mutual fund or exchange-traded fund that owns real-estate stocks or real-estate investment trusts should do the job. Again, think globally – the world is getting wealthier, and as the saying goes, they’re not making any more land.

  • Don’t really need. Sector funds: Buying a surging sector is tempting, but such bets can turn against you quickly. “Be involved in profitable businesses around the world regardless of what’s hot and what’s not,” says Kacy Gott, a financial adviser in San Francisco. “Don’t chase sectors. That’s not for investors; that’s for traders.”

Gold: It insures against financial catastrophe and marches to its own drum. But as an investment, short-term risk is high and long-term reward is marginal. If you want gold, buy jewelry.

Other commodities: This is a controversial call, for good reason. The price of so-called hard assets is soaring. China, India and other fast-growing countries need oil, natural gas, metals and materials to fuel development. Demand for agricultural products is also high.

You can play this trend with funds or ETFs that own a basket of commodities, and yes, you’ll get diversification. But in truth, you’ll do fine without direct exposure.

“Commodities are way overhyped as an asset class,” says Jeremy Siegel, a Wharton School finance professor. Instead, he’d buy stock in oil producers, mining companies and other businesses that stand to profit from this global boom.[/i]

[/quote]
Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

Being low cost does make them attractive would a mix be good for a beginner aswell? Index funds and stocks of companies one feels good about?

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

[/quote]

depends on what you pick! Although in general, I think index funds are retarded. On the other hand, they are probably less retarded than most mutual funds.

“Feeling” is probably not a good way to do business. If you can’t articulate why you think a company is a good investment, you should probably not buy it.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

depends on what you pick! Although in general, I think index funds are retarded. On the other hand, they are probably less retarded than most mutual funds.

Being low cost does make them attractive would a mix be good for a beginner aswell? Index funds and stocks of companies one feels good about?

[/quote]
“Feeling” is probably not a good way to do business. If you can’t articulate why you think a company is a good investment, you should probably not buy it.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

depends on what you pick! Although in general, I think index funds are retarded. On the other hand, they are probably less retarded than most mutual funds.

Being low cost does make them attractive would a mix be good for a beginner aswell? Index funds and stocks of companies one feels good about?

“Feeling” is probably not a good way to do business. If you can’t articulate why you think a company is a good investment, you should probably not buy it.

[/quote]

Why in your opinion are Index Funds no good?

My mistake, poor choice of words. I meant to say after research if the company looks good would it not be wiser to buy large amount of those stocks than buying an index fund that might have a few or none of them. Would it not be better to invest the most in a few companies that have a good track record and room for growth than to buy into a lot more companies that aren’t as good.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

depends on what you pick! Although in general, I think index funds are retarded. On the other hand, they are probably less retarded than most mutual funds.

Being low cost does make them attractive would a mix be good for a beginner aswell? Index funds and stocks of companies one feels good about?

“Feeling” is probably not a good way to do business. If you can’t articulate why you think a company is a good investment, you should probably not buy it.

Why in your opinion are Index Funds no good?
[/quote]

Because people’s buying and selling decisions are irrational, and when you own an index fund, you necessarily follow mirror those decisions.

[quote]
My mistake, poor choice of words. I meant to say after research if the company looks good would it not be wiser to buy large amount of those stocks than buying an index fund that might have a few or none of them. Would it not be better to invest the most in a few companies that have a good track record and room for growth than to buy into a lot more companies that aren’t as good.[/quote]

In theory, sure-ish. In practice, I would suggest spending a lot of time studying business before trying this.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

Being low cost does make them attractive would a mix be good for a beginner aswell? Index funds and stocks of companies one feels good about?

[/quote]

Do you plan to have another job and a family? If so, you won’t have enough time to do meaningful research on the number of companies it would take to get good diversification while trying to find value - and you’ll be incurring more transaction costs (because you’ll have a greater number of different investments to track and balance).

The market may not be strictly efficient, but it’s efficient enough that you won’t get a good return on a small time investment (that doesn’t include inside info anyway…). Your best bet is to focus on diversification, risk tolerance and asset allocation as strategies, and cost minimization as an overall rule.

What’s wrong with mutual funds?

[quote]En Sabah Nur wrote:
What’s wrong with mutual funds?[/quote]

Mutual funds are good for the mass majority of people that are not educated in how the market works (in reality, not theory).

People with more of a background in Finance tend to dislike mutual funds since they could likely find an index fund that is similar and has a much lower management expense ratio. Mutual fund advisors make their money based on asset levels primarily and not so much on their performance.

So why would I pay a mutual fund ~2.5% - 3% when I could get an index fund for ~1% and the mutual funds rarely beat the indexes over the long term?

The reason I think mutual funds are a good idea for many is that to buy an index you need a brokerage account and with a brokerage account comes access to buying individual stocks. In my experience, many intelligent people are too likely to end up investing in “hot stocks” once they have access and will not stick to indexes. These people usually end up losing some of their money.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:

Although harder would, picking your own stocks instead up investing in index funds not give you a better return?

Being low cost does make them attractive would a mix be good for a beginner aswell? Index funds and stocks of companies one feels good about?

Do you plan to have another job and a family? If so, you won’t have enough time to do meaningful research on the number of companies it would take to get good diversification while trying to find value - and you’ll be incurring more transaction costs (because you’ll have a greater number of different investments to track and balance).[/quote]

This is a good point that the theory you learn in schools usually “assumes away”. After I finished school and started full time I was married with one young child. I basically turned my previous “study time” at night into “research time”. It worked very well and I made a number of good, albeit small investments, for about a year or so. As my family grew and work and home requirements increased my research time steadily decreased. Ultimately I took a hit for stupidity, fortunately I had already liquidated most of my portfolio to put a down payment on a new house.

[quote]
The market may not be strictly efficient, but it’s efficient enough that you won’t get a good return on a small time investment (that doesn’t include inside info anyway…). Your best bet is to focus on diversification, risk tolerance and asset allocation as strategies, and cost minimization as an overall rule.[/quote]

Another good point. However, I think it should say the market is efficient in the long term, in the short term the market is prone to peoples whims and generally overshoots true valuations (both ways). Same idea as we discuss here about fitness trends on a pendulum.

Invest it in a good index mutual fund. Morningstar.com has a WEALTH of information on investing.

put it all on black…

ROTH IRA! You wont be able to take it out but it’s the best place to save money while you are young.

[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
En Sabah Nur wrote:
What’s wrong with mutual funds?

Mutual funds are good for the mass majority of people that are not educated in how the market works (in reality, not theory).

People with more of a background in Finance tend to dislike mutual funds since they could likely find an index fund that is similar and has a much lower management expense ratio. Mutual fund advisors make their money based on asset levels primarily and not so much on their performance.

So why would I pay a mutual fund ~2.5% - 3% when I could get an index fund for ~1% and the mutual funds rarely beat the indexes over the long term?

The reason I think mutual funds are a good idea for many is that to buy an index you need a brokerage account and with a brokerage account comes access to buying individual stocks. In my experience, many intelligent people are too likely to end up investing in “hot stocks” once they have access and will not stick to indexes. These people usually end up losing some of their money.[/quote]

I happen to like emerging market funds. You need to prick the correct one but even in the shitty 4th quarter mine made 5%. Not bad since most people were losing money.

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:
ROTH IRA! You wont be able to take it out but it’s the best place to save money while you are young.[/quote]

That’s a type of account, not an investment.

[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
Mutual fund advisors make their money based on asset levels primarily and not so much on their performance.
[/quote]

This conflict of interests makes the entire proposition so retarded I don’t even want to think about it.

Unless the asset level is capped, investing in a mutual fund is retarded.

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:
I happen to like emerging market funds. You need to prick the correct one but even in the shitty 4th quarter mine made 5%. Not bad since most people were losing money.[/quote]

But nobody can pick the correct emerging market fund in advance for, say, 5-10 years in a row.

[quote]andersons wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
I happen to like emerging market funds. You need to prick the correct one but even in the shitty 4th quarter mine made 5%. Not bad since most people were losing money.

But nobody can pick the correct emerging market fund in advance for, say, 5-10 years in a row.

[/quote]

Or you can just buy EEM and have some exposure to them all.

I personally like Russia (RSX) Brazil (EWZ) and to a lesser extent Taiwan (EWT)but am cautious on Taiwan b/c they are very tied to the China market.
Also buying gold (GLD) can be a great play now b/c as the dollar weakens (and it will keep going down) that should rise.

If your young and don’t need this money for a long time I’d say F it and start buying JP Morgan like crazy. You are going to get some short term volatility but in a few years you will see a nice return.

Bottom line is if I were 18y/o and had $5,000 to invest I’d prob go something like
20% EEM
20% DDM (2x the Dow Jones)
20% QLD (2x the NASDAQ)
20% GLD
10% JPM
5% RSX
5% EWZ