International Jihadis and the West's Response

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

An open letter to the leader of ISIS, by a handful of Muslim leaders and intellectuals.

Essentially says “Islam–you’re doing it wrong.”[/quote]

I noticed anything about hating Jews was omitted. This letter was good, now we need to hold all muslims accountable to a high level of behavior, including treatment of Jews and Israel. I am sorry, but accepting Jewish people is part of the bargain, otherwise there is no deal. It needed to be specifically addressed. [/quote]

Jews are considered “People of the Scripture” and are forbidden to be harmed per Sura al-Hajj 22:17, referenced in sections 10 and 11 of the letter.
[/quote]

Well, I can’t force you to read what I wrote but I already addressed your complaint.
In a long post on page 2 I said the following:
“Now I am in no position to judge their actual religion. I don’t know it, I don’t pretend to know it and have no interest in knowing it. I am interested in how they behave and how they treat others because right now, it looks really bad. I am not talking about their religion, I am talking about them.”

So I don’t really care what the Koran says. I care about how they act when it’s hostile to other people, cities, nations, etc.[/quote]

I was only pointing out that not fucking with the Jews was in fact mentioned in the letter. As far as I’m aware, though, fucking with Israelis in particular and Jews in general is not yet a serious problem with ISIS. Might become one, if they venture farther south.

82

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

An open letter to the leader of ISIS, by a handful of Muslim leaders and intellectuals.

Essentially says “Islam–you’re doing it wrong.”[/quote]

I noticed anything about hating Jews was omitted. This letter was good, now we need to hold all muslims accountable to a high level of behavior, including treatment of Jews and Israel. I am sorry, but accepting Jewish people is part of the bargain, otherwise there is no deal. It needed to be specifically addressed. [/quote]

Jews are considered “People of the Scripture” and are forbidden to be harmed per Sura al-Hajj 22:17, referenced in sections 10 and 11 of the letter.
[/quote]

Well, I can’t force you to read what I wrote but I already addressed your complaint.
In a long post on page 2 I said the following:
“Now I am in no position to judge their actual religion. I don’t know it, I don’t pretend to know it and have no interest in knowing it. I am interested in how they behave and how they treat others because right now, it looks really bad. I am not talking about their religion, I am talking about them.”

So I don’t really care what the Koran says. I care about how they act when it’s hostile to other people, cities, nations, etc.[/quote]

I was only pointing out that not fucking with the Jews was in fact mentioned in the letter. As far as I’m aware, though, fucking with Israelis in particular and Jews in general is not yet a serious problem with ISIS. Might become one, if they venture farther south.[/quote]

Well, somehow I missed it. I thought I read it, but I do have a touch of dyslexia, so its very possible I missed it. Both my daughter and I miss whole words, flip word order, skip lines. When I look at a written page from a small distance the words and lines move and flash.

83

Also, Pat, understand that this was an open letter to al-Baghdadi, the self-proclaimed Caliph of the Islamic State, calling him and his organization out for their crimes, not an open letter to all Muslims everywhere.

It’s like when the Pope wrote to the bishops of Rwanda asking them to stop the priests and nuns in their diocese from aiding and abetting rape and genocide by preaching hatred of the rival tribe in the churches, or from taking part in it themselves, he was only speaking to that particular situation, and not to any Catholics anywhere else in the world.

84

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

An open letter to the leader of ISIS, by a handful of Muslim leaders and intellectuals.

Essentially says “Islam–you’re doing it wrong.”[/quote]

I noticed anything about hating Jews was omitted. This letter was good, now we need to hold all muslims accountable to a high level of behavior, including treatment of Jews and Israel. I am sorry, but accepting Jewish people is part of the bargain, otherwise there is no deal. It needed to be specifically addressed. [/quote]

Jews are considered “People of the Scripture” and are forbidden to be harmed per Sura al-Hajj 22:17, referenced in sections 10 and 11 of the letter.
[/quote]

Well, I can’t force you to read what I wrote but I already addressed your complaint.
In a long post on page 2 I said the following:
“Now I am in no position to judge their actual religion. I don’t know it, I don’t pretend to know it and have no interest in knowing it. I am interested in how they behave and how they treat others because right now, it looks really bad. I am not talking about their religion, I am talking about them.”

So I don’t really care what the Koran says. I care about how they act when it’s hostile to other people, cities, nations, etc.[/quote]

I was only pointing out that not fucking with the Jews was in fact mentioned in the letter. As far as I’m aware, though, fucking with Israelis in particular and Jews in general is not yet a serious problem with ISIS. Might become one, if they venture farther south.[/quote]

Well, somehow I missed it. I thought I read it, but I do have a touch of dyslexia, so its very possible I missed it. Both my daughter and I miss whole words, flip word order, skip lines. When I look at a written page from a small distance the words and lines move and flash.[/quote]

Yes, but was the dress gold and white, or black and blue?

85

Bad Idea #7 - People who criticize the religion deserve death.
Case in point:

86

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Also, Pat, understand that this was an open letter to al-Baghdadi, the self-proclaimed Caliph of the Islamic State, calling him and his organization out for their crimes, not an open letter to all Muslims everywhere.

It’s like when the Pope wrote to the bishops of Rwanda asking them to stop the priests and nuns in their diocese from aiding and abetting rape and genocide by preaching hatred of the rival tribe in the churches, or from taking part in it themselves, he was only speaking to that particular situation, and not to any Catholics anywhere else in the world.

[/quote]

And? If you have the notion, please read my long post on page 2 from 02-24-2015, 06:50 PM. I addressed all this stuff you’re bringing up.

87

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

An open letter to the leader of ISIS, by a handful of Muslim leaders and intellectuals.

Essentially says “Islam–you’re doing it wrong.”[/quote]

I noticed anything about hating Jews was omitted. This letter was good, now we need to hold all muslims accountable to a high level of behavior, including treatment of Jews and Israel. I am sorry, but accepting Jewish people is part of the bargain, otherwise there is no deal. It needed to be specifically addressed. [/quote]

Jews are considered “People of the Scripture” and are forbidden to be harmed per Sura al-Hajj 22:17, referenced in sections 10 and 11 of the letter.
[/quote]

Well, I can’t force you to read what I wrote but I already addressed your complaint.
In a long post on page 2 I said the following:
“Now I am in no position to judge their actual religion. I don’t know it, I don’t pretend to know it and have no interest in knowing it. I am interested in how they behave and how they treat others because right now, it looks really bad. I am not talking about their religion, I am talking about them.”

So I don’t really care what the Koran says. I care about how they act when it’s hostile to other people, cities, nations, etc.[/quote]

I was only pointing out that not fucking with the Jews was in fact mentioned in the letter. As far as I’m aware, though, fucking with Israelis in particular and Jews in general is not yet a serious problem with ISIS. Might become one, if they venture farther south.[/quote]

Well, somehow I missed it. I thought I read it, but I do have a touch of dyslexia, so its very possible I missed it. Both my daughter and I miss whole words, flip word order, skip lines. When I look at a written page from a small distance the words and lines move and flash.[/quote]

Yes, but was the dress gold and white, or black and blue?
[/quote]

I see it white and gold, she sees it blue and black.

88

Iran helping Iraqi Shiite troops attack Tikrit. No help from the US coalition.

We just handed Iraq to Iran and they opened up with a sectarian war.

89

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Iran helping Iraqi Shiite troops attack Tikrit. No help from the US coalition.

We just handed Iraq to Iran and they opened up with a sectarian war.

[/quote]

Let 'em have at it.

If we’re not gonna do shit, then I guess it’s up to Jordan, Egypt and Iran.

90

Is having Iran stuck in a war against ISIS a bad thing?

Nope

91

[quote]treco wrote:
Is having Iran stuck in a war against ISIS a bad thing?

Nope[/quote]

It’s not a bad thing, but Iran is no friend of the west.

92

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Is having Iran stuck in a war against ISIS a bad thing?

Nope[/quote]

It’s not a bad thing, but Iran is no friend of the west. [/quote]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

93

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Is having Iran stuck in a war against ISIS a bad thing?

Nope[/quote]

It’s not a bad thing, but Iran is no friend of the west. [/quote]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.[/quote]

Sometimes, the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.

94

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Is having Iran stuck in a war against ISIS a bad thing?

Nope[/quote]

It’s not a bad thing, but Iran is no friend of the west. [/quote]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.[/quote]

Sometimes, the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.
[/quote]

I think I heard that somewhere else today.

95

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

They’re destroying their own history. No one worships these things any more. What are they afraid of?[/quote]

Just as bad.

It’s Alexandria all over again.

What is it with religious fanatics and books?[/quote]

I don’t really think it’s a case of destroying their own history b/c most ISIS fighters are foreigners and descendants of peoples from the Arabian peninsula. Iraqi’s may speak a dialect of Arabic but they’re not culturally close to people from the peninsula.

Those artifacts of history are from an ancient civilization in the land presently known as Iraq. The people from the Arabian peninsula were still millennia away from civilization at that time.

96

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Iran helping Iraqi Shiite troops attack Tikrit. No help from the US coalition.

We just handed Iraq to Iran and they opened up with a sectarian war.

[/quote]

Let 'em have at it.

If we’re not gonna do shit, then I guess it’s up to Jordan, Egypt and Iran.[/quote]

This is interesting news to share but it’s a mistake to say that Iran opened up with sectarian war after the USA supposedly handed the country over. The instant Saddam Hussein and his Ba’athist regime were finished, Iran’s influence took over. This began over a decade ago. And it’s more of a return to the historical norm than handing anything over.

Iran’s influence and relationship with the Mesopotamian region literally goes back thousands of years and it’s quite evident in Iraq’s present day cultural centers. The USA is not even 250 years old and it’s influence in the Middle East can be measured in decades, not millennia.

So America has no right to say it’s handing anything over in the Middle East. Senile John McCain might believe the USA owns half of the world, but the rest of the world does not see it this way. The USA never owned or colonized Iraq, and has zero cultural influence. On top of the obvious fact that the USA is thousands of miles away in North America, and Iran is a bordering neighbor. Iran’s historical influence in Iraq was precisely the reason Saddam Hussein was so hell-bent on going to war with Iran b/c it threatened his power.

Concerning opening up with war, like I said Iran’s influence in Iraq has eclipsed America’s influence in Iraq for over a decade now. Further, it’s quite obvious that ISIS’ campaign of slaughtering innocents in barbaric ways and attempts to take over multiple countries in the Middle East is what started this. ISIS opened up with sectarian war, and to state otherwise is false. Iranians never bothered (i.e.; savagely slaughtered) Iraqi Kurds, Assyrian Christians, etc etc. Iraq both wanted and needed Iranian collaboration to stay afloat, and this has been outright stated in plain language several times from Baghdad.

It should be quite obvious why Iran has incentive to be involved with the war on ISIS. It’s happening in their backyard and is a direct threat. Iran, or any other nation with a backbone, isn’t going to sit back while direct threats are OPENLY WAGING WAR in their backyard in the hope that American (enemy country) and Jordanian (enemy country) pilots are going to take care of it for them via intermittent air strikes. How many times have you heard Americans, including elected leaders, cheer this war on? Hoping that the dirty mooooslimes kill each other off? And Iran is supposed to trust that America is going to destroy ISIS for them?

Can you imagine if a Venezuelan terrorist group was slaughtering Mexicans and threatening to come for Texas next, and the USA just sitting back and hoping intermittent airstrikes from Russia and Barbados was going to solve the problem? Of course not. That is basically how Iran views airstrikes from the USA and Jordan against ISIS (i.e.; not worth a fart in the wind).

The American people largely do not give two shits about what’s happening in Iraq and Syria. And some that claim they do care are clearly full of shit and are just looking to bash Obama for not waging a full scale war that the public obviously doesn’t have the will for. These are the reasons why Iran is involved in Iraq and the war against ISIS. To suggest it’s some insidious reason reeks of bias and ignorance of history.

97

Just because obama is black, and everyone is out to get him. Totally logical explanation for everything that cant still be blamed on Bush.

99

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Is having Iran stuck in a war against ISIS a bad thing?

Nope[/quote]

It’s not a bad thing, but Iran is no friend of the west. [/quote]

If it’s a bad thing or not depends on your perspective. Iran is the only nation in the entire world that has done anything meaningful to combat ISIS. By being the sole nation to do this, it is growing it’s sphere of influence throughout the Middle East, particularly in the Levant. It also serves as another failed example of it’s Middle Eastern rivals’ repeated failures to exert any personal control over regional matters. It also shows that Iran is doing the job that the mighty and wealthy nations of the West can’t do or don’t have the will for. This plays very well for Iran’s propaganda machine.

Iran isn’t really using much of its limited resources in this war (it can’t afford to). It’s big news if ONE Iranian representative dies. It’s strongest and most influential involvement is through command, structure, and tactics. It’s providing support to Iraqi military and militias, and to the Kurds as well. This is why the West has referred to Qasem Soleimani as anything from “evil genius” (Richard Clarke, counterterrorism czar for Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush) to “the single most powerful operative in the Middle East today” (John Maguire, a former C.I.A. officer in Iraq) to “puppeteer of the Middle East” (The Guardian). Most people have never heard of this man in the West, but everyone in the Middle East knows this man.

Iran is a poor country but it’s people are intelligent and understand how to use soft power. Something it’s rivals don’t understand and don’t have experience with despite the 100s of billions of dollars they spend on US military equipment.

It is definitely a headache for the Iranian regime, but my opinion is that ultimately this is an overall positive for Iran b/c it’s unlikely ISIS makes any more meaningful advances and it’s a neo-con/Saudi Arabian pipe dream to think ISIS is going to invade Iran. From Iran’s perspective, the worst thing that can happen is it’s sphere of influence in the Levant is temporarily weakened.

100

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

…So America has no right to say it’s handing anything over in the Middle East. Senile John McCain might believe the USA owns half of the world, but the rest of the world does not see it this way. The USA never owned or colonized Iraq, and has zero cultural influence…

[/quote]

Dude. The rest of your post is insightful. However, this reductionist piece of drivel here goes beyond the pale.

When the US at its own expense in both treasure and lives takes on the obligation to clean up the shithole that is the Middle East it gains the right to hand over or not hand over.[/quote]

You’re correct, that was a stupid thing to include in my post. I’m going to keep it in and admit here I was wrong to include that.

America never was able to grow it’s soft power in the region, however. Having the attitude that the USA can hand it over implies that Iraqi’s have no say in the matter. Iran’s soft power in Iraq has and always will be stronger than America’s for all the reasons I presented earlier. And that’s not a bad thing b/c why does a North American nation need to be so involved with Middle Eastern nations? It was Cheney’s folly to think that destroying the Taliban and Saddam Hussein was not going to be an immediate boon to the Iranian regime. Leaked cables clearly show that the Bush administration’s plan assumed the Iranian regime was going to roll over and die (along with North Korea by some odd logic) once Iraq was taken care of. No matter what your opinion is, it was plainly obvious that the Taliban and Saddam Hussein represented the biggest and most militant threats to the Iranian regime, and the USA took care of those threats without Iran lifting a finger. Iran’s historical legacy then started reverting to the norm.