Intermittent Fasting: Martin Berkhan

Nutrition
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[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Gumpshmee, awesome results. Since you’re about the same ht as me, I have a few questions if you don’t mind answering them.

  1. What’s your maint level and what kind of weekly deficit did you run?
  2. Did you train 3 days a week as Martin recommends with a +20% and -20% calorie cycling?
  3. What kind of weights/rep ranges were you working in?

Also, do you have any before shots? Where do you feel your stubborn fat is? I feel like I’m never able to get my abs to show. I think, like Siouxfan in his carb loading thread, I’m carrying everything right over my stomach. Drives me nuts.[/quote]

My maintenance is supposed to be about 2200 and I would go -20/+10. I did PSMF on rest days and maintenance on workout days for two weeks in there and I was eating a lot of miracle noodles (zero cal) and shrimp. I wouldn’t diet so aggressively again, given the option of -20/+10.

I also experimented with nicotine/caffeine and towards the end ephedrine/caffeine. My adrenals quit for a few days (wasn’t responding to ephedrine anymore and I was run down) so I stopped. They’re fine now. I also gave HOT-ROX and xenadrine a run together when I was 180 or so.

My core lifts are zercher squats 185x8 (back squats aggravate my poo shoulders), RDLs just below the knee 275x10, Cable crossovers 70x10 strict (no bench due to poo shoulders), Heavy lateral swings John Meadow’s style (no OHP due to poo shoulders), Pullups 160+35x8, and hammer strength high row/shrug… things. 90x12 (3 second Maximum Muscle contraction.

I also do super intense drop sets on the seated calf raise.

My stubborn fat is on my lovehandles/lowerback and of course glutes, but that’s everyone. I have some before photos kickin around somewhere. I did a dirty bulk up to 210 in a hurry. I’m now at 160 with maybe 10 good pounds to show from said bulk.

The plan is to get up to 180 at 7%.

It would certainly suck to be in Siouxfan’s situation, with vascularity but no abs.

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[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Gumpshmee, awesome results. Since you’re about the same ht as me, I have a few questions if you don’t mind answering them.

  1. What’s your maint level and what kind of weekly deficit did you run?
  2. Did you train 3 days a week as Martin recommends with a +20% and -20% calorie cycling?
  3. What kind of weights/rep ranges were you working in?

Also, do you have any before shots? Where do you feel your stubborn fat is? I feel like I’m never able to get my abs to show. I think, like Siouxfan in his carb loading thread, I’m carrying everything right over my stomach. Drives me nuts.[/quote]

My maintenance is supposed to be about 2200 and I would go -20/+10. I did PSMF on rest days and maintenance on workout days for two weeks in there and I was eating a lot of miracle noodles (zero cal) and shrimp. I wouldn’t diet so aggressively again, given the option of -20/+10.

I also experimented with nicotine/caffeine and towards the end ephedrine/caffeine. My adrenals quit for a few days (wasn’t responding to ephedrine anymore and I was run down) so I stopped. They’re fine now. I also gave HOT-ROX and xenadrine a run together when I was 180 or so.

My core lifts are zercher squats 185x8 (back squats aggravate my poo shoulders), RDLs just below the knee 275x10, Cable crossovers 70x10 strict (no bench due to poo shoulders), Heavy lateral swings John Meadow’s style (no OHP due to poo shoulders), Pullups 160+35x8, and hammer strength high row/shrug… things. 90x12 (3 second Maximum Muscle contraction.

I also do super intense drop sets on the seated calf raise.

My stubborn fat is on my lovehandles/lowerback and of course glutes, but that’s everyone. I have some before photos kickin around somewhere. I did a dirty bulk up to 210 in a hurry. I’m now at 160 with maybe 10 good pounds to show from said bulk.

The plan is to get up to 180 at 7%.

It would certainly suck to be in Siouxfan’s situation, with vascularity but no abs.
[/quote]

Wow, thanks for the details! Am I understanding you correctly that you recommend doing -20/+10 (3 training days a week), and that you actually did not do this during your cut? It sounds like you really put a lot of thought/discipline into this. How long did you wind up cutting for?

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I did -20/ 10 (3 training days) for the majority of the cut. I cut for 32 weeks (there was a 2 week break a la lyle mcdonald’s advice in a guide to flexible dieting).

I did do a stint of PSMF (1400 cals) on rest days, and maintenance (2200) cals on training days, also while training on my so called “rest days”. I wouldn’t recommend it though because my cravings got insane and I was taking 5-HTP, Rhodiola, and eating tonnes of konjac noodles and cabbage to curb my appetite, and it was probably just eating into my LBM more than necessary.

At the moment I’m now -10/ 20 according to my estimated TDEE… but I’m still getting leaner… so my TDEE is probably higher than 2200. But I’ll need a week or two to be sure before I elevate my calories again.

The funny part is, that I don’t actually put fat on easy, I just bulked at about 5000 calories a day in a misguided attempt to get huge ASAP when I got up to 210, but now that I have vascularity I’m not gunna let my bodyfat go over 10 ever again. I just like being lean that much, and I have more patience now when it comes to gaining.

284

OK, that makes sense. I tried alternating with a PSMF, But agree that it is just brutal. Nice work down 50 lbs in 8 months.

Given all the info out there on Martins site and others. If you were going into this again, knowing what you know now, what other resources would you recommend? Any other advice?

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I am sorry but something went wrong if you only netted 10lbs out of 50 on a bulk. But great results cutting.

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[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I am sorry but something went wrong if you only netted 10lbs out of 50 on a bulk. But great results cutting. [/quote]

lol, it’s funny bc I did pretty much exactly what Gumpshee did last year. Went on a really successful bulk from 150 to 200. Then, decided I would commit with a friend to running for the summer to see if I had a race left in me after moving to a new city and working at a job for 70-80 hours/week. IF’ed down to 160. Lost tons of muscle mass and strength. But boy oh boy was I lean. In retrospect, it’s my big regret from 2011.

It’s all about goals: for Gumpshee, it’s a big success. For me, it was (at least in retrospect) a total failure :(.

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Command → are you saying you believe the correct order of events would be to drop down super lean than steadily gain. I am in a phase now where i am doing IF -20/20 occasionally maintenance on off day and trying to bulk. I’m just sitting at that 12-13% where vascularity is not to great (genetics and BF wise) but if i cut down i would probably see more vascularity.

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Agreed its about end goals but no one should want to spin their wheels. I am up 40lbs in a year right now and to be as lean as i was before my gaining i would need to drop 10-15lbs. I am all about being lean but not about losing muscle to do it. Its to damn hard to get it.

289

[quote]lzqosoz94 wrote:
Command → are you saying you believe the correct order of events would be to drop down super lean than steadily gain. I am in a phase now where i am doing IF -20/20 occasionally maintenance on off day and trying to bulk. I’m just sitting at that 12-13% where vascularity is not to great (genetics and BF wise) but if i cut down i would probably see more vascularity. [/quote]

I think it just depends on your goals. I’m back up to 185 right now after my final foray into running from late May to November. I ultimately had to just give up running altogether, which I don’t miss anymore.

If your goal is just to be a lean dude who looks like he lifts weights, I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with wanting to stay really lean while doing so. If your goal is to get as big as you can or to get really big in general, I think that you need a period where you just pound your body with cals and see how it responds.

Fifty pounds from February to May last year, I was still pretty lean. Now that I’ve quit running altogether, my goal is to get as big as I can. I don’t plan on worrying about leaning out at all until I hit 220, hopefully before I graduate from my professional school next May.

Different people think that it can be done differently. Personally, I think that the bottom line is that no one who got really big started out worrying about staying really lean. Ryan, on the other hand, is adopting a slow and steady mentality on it. Which is fine, and may be perfectly legit–I’m not saying it can’t be done. But I just can’t think of anyone on this forum or elsewhere who has gotten to the point that I would eventually like to get to by gaining gradually when starting out over the first few years. I approach eating like they talk about on Iron Radio–like it’s my job. By the time I hit 200 last year, I was housing 5k calories per day to gain. I’m not ready for that sort of consumption again, but I’ll know when I am.

It is worth mentioning, however, that I have abysmally low T levels for medical reasons not worth getting into here. The reason I mention that is that it’s very hard for me to keep lean mass when I’m not downing tons of food: e.g., when I recommitted to running last summer, my muscle mass dropped quick. So my experience on housing calories might not be indicative of what happens with normal, healthy folks.

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[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I am sorry but something went wrong if you only netted 10lbs out of 50 on a bulk. But great results cutting. [/quote]

Bingo. That happens when you don’t hold that weight long enough and rush into dieting. I held onto more muscle because I held that weight for longer.

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ooo… X is here… Before the shit storm hits I want to ask:

X, what do you feel is a reasonable time to hold a higher body weight before dieting down? Additionally, it seems with IF, one could reach a weight and then hold it while still performing a recomp.

292

I held my heaviest weight for over a year this last time. The result was holding onto way more muscle than when dieting from the exact same weight 2 years previous.

If you jump up to a heavier weight and are dieting in less than two months, I would honestly expect you to lose more of it.

That is why no one should be dieting down every year unless they are already pretty damn close to where they want to be. If you are still miles from the goal, you had better work on gaining in a way that is smart enough so that you don’t turn into a pig in only 2 months.

This is a long term journey…or at least it is for the guys who plan on making people say “Holy shit” when they see them.

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[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I am sorry but something went wrong if you only netted 10lbs out of 50 on a bulk. But great results cutting. [/quote]

yup… I was hoping to go back up to where I used to be at 190 before I got starved by school, on the theory of muscle memory. I got up to 210 from 160-170 in about 4 months. Went way too fast.

Wasn’t comfortable holding so much lard at 210, my sides jiggling was driving me crazy. I only aspire to my natural limit in any case. I don’t care about being as big as possible.

Whatever… I would change things… but I can only go forward now. I might have done a recomp at that weight, but I wouldn’t feel nearly as good about myself in the mean time.

Prof X’s wisdom doesn’t apply to me because it takes me away from my goals more than it does toward. 180-190 at 5-7% is plenty impressive to me.

I’ll be quite happy with my .25 lbs/week bulk.

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[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I am sorry but something went wrong if you only netted 10lbs out of 50 on a bulk. But great results cutting. [/quote]

yup… I was hopping to go back up to where I used to be on the theory of muscle memory. I got up to 210 from 160-170 in about 4 months. Went way too fast.
[/quote]

Dude, I seriously doubt that you only gained 10 lbs of lean mass out of 50 on a bulk. Chances are, you just lost a lot of muscle when you were cutting. Prof X can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that was the whole point of his post as well.

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^yup

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Agreed about muscle memory. That will help a lot. I know i lost a ton of muscle when i did some crazy starvation diet kick thing that i got in my head a while ago (young and dumb and regret it now but oh well) anyway muscle came back very fast.

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And I mean no disrespect to Pofessor X and his X-men. I have a lot of respect for his long term dedication and experience. And it’s true I probably lost muscle due to not creating a so called “set point”. When I bulked from my old 160 that was more like 15 percent bodyfat bear in mind and I’m more like 7-8% now, so by Net LBM I mean from then till now, not from then until the height of my bulk.

To me having a low bodyfat set point is just a higher priority than holding as much LBM regardless of fat. So what I did makes sense for my goals if it’s true that more than anything I just wanted to see myself lean… which is true.

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Its all about the overall goals

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I could make this all just simpler by saying: “my favorite comic book hero is spiderman” lol

Back on the topic of leangains and IF. I went through some crash dieting phases in there, and that’s on top of an underestimated TDEE. Leangains is a moderate cyclical approach and I found ways to make it hardcore. I tried -100/+50 even… just to see if it would work… and no… but maybe if it had coincided with ephedrine… hmmm (not honestly considering doing it again). I also gave the nicotine caffeine combo a shot… the appetite suppression is par excellence. I’ll be off stims of all kind for a while though due to aforementioned adrenal fatigue/exhaustion. Energy is actually superb these days while off the stims.

I took John Romaniello’s advice following cheat days with full fast days… now that actually worked quite well, a good thermo with appetite suppression will get you through the fast day easily (even without is easy) and your water, stomach content and overall weight will return to the level before the cheat… so you can make it a +100% cheat day in my experience, and come out looking dry 2 days after.

My problem was and still is that my mind confuses (despite knowing otherwise) sudden dips in weight as progress, so carb/calorie cycling definitely plays tricks on my mind.

For my slow gain phase I will be trying something along the lines of 300g pro and higher/ approximately 125g fat/ and <100g carbs. To test the theory of Protein Glucogenesis to replenish muscle glycogen (beyond what carbs provide) so that insulin remains chronically lower and that fat is burned (encouraged by including VCO (MCTs (ketone bodies))).

This is based on the research that carbs do not elevate protein synthesis any more when adequate protein is present (see Menno Henselmen's blog here: http://mennohenselmans.com/optimized-workout-nutrition-carbs-protein-revisited/ ). 

My carbs will come mainly from my blueberry/blackberry/raspberry blend, Cabbage (I do amazing things with cabbage), Kale, and sweet potatoes. Protein mostly in the form of Cod, Shrimp, tuna, chicken, turkey (ground and breasts), beef heart (high CLA, phosphatadylcholine, CoQ10), and the occasional beef liver (similar to beef heart, but less lean).

My fats will be in the form of EVOO, VCO and EFAs.

Supps:
Whey (Pro-ISL ultra)
ZMA
Omega-3s
D3
CoQ10
Grape seed extract
R-ALA
Apple Cider Vinegar
Green Tea Extract
Cinnamon (in gross quantities)
Tumeric (in gross quantities)

I'll have a weekly cheat: all you can eat sushi (healthiest cheat ever) with a few sweet treats, followed by a full fast day.

Hopefully it goes well... If not then I suppose more carbs will be needed.
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[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
I could make this all just simpler by saying: “my favorite comic book hero is spiderman” lol[/quote]

Repulsive.

I must sign off now. Powers being drained by lack of hugeness.