I appreciate the quick responses guys. So far, I haven’t changed anything today…I’ll eat when my window starts in a few hours with a small preworkout meal…wait a couple hours…have some BCAAs and train per usual. I have a pretty basic head cold with no fever. Of course, I don’t feel 100% and I got shit sleep last night.
In fact…top priority for me needs to be fixing my sleep. I haven’t had good sleep in weeks…either I can’t fall asleep when I want to…and/or I wake up every single hour. I also piss a lot in the middle of the night…I don’t really know how to fix that one, as I try to consume a lot of water throughout the day…
Some other tweaks that I’m making are reducing my carbohydrate intake on training days from the 250-300g level to the 200-225g level…increasing my protein intake from about 150g to 175g and increasing my fat to the 55-65g range. On non-training days fat will be slightly higher…protein will be closer to 200g and carbs will be kept pretty damn low. Do you guys see a problem with consuming around 65g of fat with my carb intake in the 200-225g range on training days?
[quote]facko wrote:
Some other tweaks that I’m making are reducing my carbohydrate intake on training days from the 250-300g level to the 200-225g level…increasing my protein intake from about 150g to 175g and increasing my fat to the 55-65g range. Do you guys see a problem with consuming around 65g of fat with my carb intake in the 200-225g range on training days?[/quote] Just a thought:
Why not reduce carbs to 200-225g (just like you wrote),
increase your protein intake to 200g,
and keep dietary fat to 35-45g ?
[quote]facko wrote:
Some other tweaks that I’m making are reducing my carbohydrate intake on training days from the 250-300g level to the 200-225g level…increasing my protein intake from about 150g to 175g and increasing my fat to the 55-65g range. Do you guys see a problem with consuming around 65g of fat with my carb intake in the 200-225g range on training days?[/quote] Just a thought:
Why not reduce carbs to 200-225g (just like you wrote),
increase your protein intake to 200g,
and keep dietary fat to 35-45g ?
[/quote]
If I reduce carbs to approx. 200g…up protein to 200g which I have done…I’m at 1600kcal. I need to consume 2200kcal…600kcal left…divided by 9 = 66.6g of fat…
Facko, you may be overthinking this. I think as long as you’re in a calorie deficit and getting sufficient protein, you should be fine. Just remember that fat has an even lower thermic effect than carbs.
Since I read Lyles article on “How we get fat” I haven’t really worried too much about incorporating more carbs and dropping dietary fat, since it’s all really dependant on overall calories. When you’re in the fasted state, you should be drawing on stored energy (fat) and when you’re in the fed state (8 hrs) you will not. On a weekly basis, if you’re in a calorie deficit, you should be using all the calories you ingest plus stored fat.
From Lyle’s article:
[b]
Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn?t impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree.
Let?s assume someone is eating at exactly maintenance calories . Neither gaining nor losing fat. Here?s what happens with excess calories. Assume that all three conditions represent identical increases in caloric intake, just from each of the different macros. Here?s what happens mechanistically and why all three still make you fat:
Excess dietary fat is directly stored as fat
Excess dietary carbs increases carb oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
Excess dietary protein increases protein oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
Got it? All three situations make you fat, just through different mechanisms. Fat is directly stored and carbs and protein cause you to store the fat you?re eating by decreasing fat oxidation. [/b]
@ DS1973: that excerpt was really eye-opening. One can’t overeat on any of the 3 macronutrients…there’s no substitute for staying within your caloric limits and exercising self-control. much thanks.
I have been using the anabolic diet for the last 8 months and for the last 2 days have incorporated leangains principles in hopes to gradually come out of the AD. After reading through some of the thread I have noticed many of the posters are quite knowledgable. I would appreciate some advice on how to optimize my meal timing, I am especially conerned with the gap aound my training time.
5:15: wake up (multivitamin and caffeine only)
6:00-8:00: Train 10 grams BCAA spread evenly ~3 grams before, ~3 grams midway, and ~3 grams after
8:00-10:30: fasted (green tea or coffee throughout)
10:30-6:30: eating window (usually 2 or 3 meals)
Appreciate the time for those that choose to read and give input.
[quote]Seouldier wrote:
I have been using the anabolic diet for the last 8 months and for the last 2 days have incorporated leangains principles in hopes to gradually come out of the AD. After reading through some of the thread I have noticed many of the posters are quite knowledgable. I would appreciate some advice on how to optimize my meal timing, I am especially conerned with the gap aound my training time.
5:15: wake up (multivitamin and caffeine only)
6:00-8:00: Train 10 grams BCAA spread evenly ~3 grams before, ~3 grams midway, and ~3 grams after
8:00-10:30: fasted (green tea or coffee throughout)
10:30-6:30: eating window (usually 2 or 3 meals)
Appreciate the time for those that choose to read and give input.
[/quote]
One suggestion I would like to make is to include EAA’s. I believe Martin himself gets a good amount of it from the Xtend that he takes. A few coaches have also recommended EAA’s as opposed to BCAA’s when fasting and I have personally taken EAA’s while on major caloric deficit yet I was able to maintain a lot more muscle mass than I previously did when I used only BCAAs.
Martin is also not opposed to Leangains followers taking some whey protein before a lifting session. Even though it’s calories, the anabolic response from the protein far outweighs the minimal rise in insulin that accompanies it, and thus the slight loss in fat-burning potential.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Facko, you may be overthinking this. I think as long as you’re in a calorie deficit and getting sufficient protein, you should be fine. Just remember that fat has an even lower thermic effect than carbs.
Since I read Lyles article on “How we get fat” I haven’t really worried too much about incorporating more carbs and dropping dietary fat, since it’s all really dependant on overall calories. When you’re in the fasted state, you should be drawing on stored energy (fat) and when you’re in the fed state (8 hrs) you will not. On a weekly basis, if you’re in a calorie deficit, you should be using all the calories you ingest plus stored fat.
From Lyle’s article:
[b]
Carbs are rarely converted to fat and stored as such
When you eat more carbs you burn more carbs and less fat; eat less carbs and you burn less carbs and more fat
Protein is basically never going to be converted to fat and stored as such
When you eat more protein, you burn more protein (and by extension, less carbs and less fat); eat less protein and you burn less protein (and by extension, more carbs and more fat)
Ingested dietary fat is primarily stored, eating more of it doesn?t impact on fat oxidation to a significant degree.
Let?s assume someone is eating at exactly maintenance calories . Neither gaining nor losing fat. Here?s what happens with excess calories. Assume that all three conditions represent identical increases in caloric intake, just from each of the different macros. Here?s what happens mechanistically and why all three still make you fat:
Excess dietary fat is directly stored as fat
Excess dietary carbs increases carb oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
Excess dietary protein increases protein oxidation, impairing fat oxidation; more of your daily fat intake is stored as fat
Got it? All three situations make you fat, just through different mechanisms. Fat is directly stored and carbs and protein cause you to store the fat you?re eating by decreasing fat oxidation. [/b]
[/quote]
This is exactly why I’m NOT overthinking this. It is because of this article that one should be figuring how much fat intake they are having on training days. I dunno about you…but I’m in surplus on my training days. It’s on non-training days that it shouldn’t be much of a big deal in terms of the energy macros…because one is in deficit. I’m questioning fat intake on surplus days…
If you look at the article…it’s stating that carbs and protein are rarely stored as fat (they can be though…carbs easier than protein, but glycogen would need to be entirely full…instead they facilitate fat gain by effectively shutting down the burning of fatty acids. This happens with all food…the fed state…versus the fasted state, where fatty acid stores are preferred. Now…on training days in which I’m in surplus…I want to minimize storing of fat…I want to maximize anabolic response and building of quality mass…I eat a lot of carbs these days…it would only make sense for me to control my dietary fat intake because the article itself shows that eating carbs and proteins will shutdown buring of fatty acids and therefore all dietary fat intake will be stored. Get me? So I’m not overthinking…I’m saying I will store more bodyfat with an intake of 300g of carbs 175g of protein and 65g of fat than I would at 350g of carbs 200g of protein and far less fat…
[quote]facko wrote:
I’m saying I will store more bodyfat with an intake of 300g of carbs 175g of protein and 65g of fat than I would at 350g of carbs 200g of protein and far less fat…[/quote]
You would have to cut your fat in half to balance the same amount of calories. I don’t think I would recommend 30g of fat per day. (unless you are carb cycling)
[quote]facko wrote:
I’m saying I will store more bodyfat with an intake of 300g of carbs 175g of protein and 65g of fat than I would at 350g of carbs 200g of protein and far less fat…[/quote]
You would have to cut your fat in half to balance the same amount of calories. I don’t think I would recommend 30g of fat per day. (unless you are carb cycling)[/quote]
I would like to up carbs though on training days…unfortunately…it makes food choices much less enjoyable because I have to reduce fat even more. In other words…“mom, how much olive oil did you use in the marinara sauce?” …If I go out and eat anywhere, it’s typically much more of a problem.
Facko. Ok I read that wrong. I was thinking fat on non-training days. Thinking out loud here… I guess I don’t know what your goal is right now. What are your maintenace cals and how many training days do you have a week. I found I could start to overthink a bit. Let’s look at an example.
Case 1: If maintenace is 2500 and you eat +/- 500 cals (20%) and you train 3 days a week with 4 days rest (3 high, 4 low) then you’re really only in a 500 cal per week deficit. That’s about 0.14 lbs per week, which in my mind qualifies as recomp.
Case 2: Same maintenance as above (2500 cals) and now you eat 2500 cals on training days and 2000 cals on rest days, then you’re in a pretty good weekly deficit, around 2000 cals a week which translates to about a half pound loss a week. I’d say fat on training days would be more important in case 1, where you have less “wiggle room” and may not burn up as much of your fat cals during the fast. If your overall weekly deficit is large enough, I think it becomes part of the noise.
If you really want to drive yourself crazy, you could do something like estimate what your energy expenditure during your fast is, and be sure your last meal of the day before has less energy than what you’ll burn in your fast the next day. Haven’t really thought about it though. I supposed you could do some kind of rolling sum / difference calculations on energy in/out. I’m sure you could make this as complicated as you’d like, maybe throw in some integration, since you’re moving through time and changing mass (dF/dt). LOL
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Facko. Ok I read that wrong. I was thinking fat on non-training days. Thinking out loud here… I guess I don’t know what your goal is right now. What are your maintenace cals and how many training days do you have a week. I found I could start to overthink a bit. Let’s look at an example.
Case 1: If maintenace is 2500 and you eat +/- 500 cals (20%) and you train 3 days a week with 4 days rest (3 high, 4 low) then you’re really only in a 500 cal per week deficit. That’s about 0.14 lbs per week, which in my mind qualifies as recomp.
Case 2: Same maintenance as above (2500 cals) and now you eat 2500 cals on training days and 2000 cals on rest days, then you’re in a pretty good weekly deficit, around 2000 cals a week which translates to about a half pound loss a week. I’d say fat on training days would be more important in case 1, where you have less “wiggle room” and may not burn up as much of your fat cals during the fast. If your overall weekly deficit is large enough, I think it becomes part of the noise.
If you really want to drive yourself crazy, you could do something like estimate what your energy expenditure during your fast is, and be sure your last meal of the day before has less energy than what you’ll burn in your fast the next day. Haven’t really thought about it though. I supposed you could do some kind of rolling sum / difference calculations on energy in/out. I’m sure you could make this as complicated as you’d like, maybe throw in some integration, since you’re moving through time and changing mass (dF/dt). LOL
[/quote]
Yea…it does get pretty crazy… I train four days per week…so I’m in a weekly surplus and my goal really is to gain muscle with as little fat gain (if any) possible.
After reading more of Lyle’s stuff and doing research of my own…I have come to realize I can’t cheat the “system” by eating as many carbs as I want on training days even within that caloric budget…and just keep fat to near zero. It doesn’t work like that apparently…If dietary fat drops below 20%…nova lipogenesis…or the process of ACTUALLY converting carbs to fat is ramped up…so it would be moot point. The best bet I can do is keep fat at around 20-25g on really high days…meaning like 350+g for my bodyweight. If I have a more moderate intake of carbs…200-225…maybe 250, I can then stand to increase fats respectively and not worry so much about whether my mom put some olive oil on the roasted potatoes at dinner.
I cook for myself about 90% of the time and as crazy as it sounds…I measure or weigh and count just about everything I eat…Once in a while though, I like to go out or eat one of my moms or dads cooked meals…and that tends to be difficult because everything is a mixed meal…carbs and fats…At 23 years old, I probably shouldn’t be giving this much attention and worry to food.
Yea…it does get pretty crazy… I train four days per week…so I’m in a weekly surplus and my goal really is to gain muscle with as little fat gain (if any) possible.
After reading more of Lyle’s stuff and doing research of my own…I have come to realize I can’t cheat the “system” by eating as many carbs as I want on training days even within that caloric budget…and just keep fat to near zero. It doesn’t work like that apparently…If dietary fat drops below 20%…nova lipogenesis…or the process of ACTUALLY converting carbs to fat is ramped up…so it would be moot point. The best bet I can do is keep fat at around 20-25g on really high days…meaning like 350+g for my bodyweight. If I have a more moderate intake of carbs…200-225…maybe 250, I can then stand to increase fats respectively and not worry so much about whether my mom put some olive oil on the roasted potatoes at dinner.
I cook for myself about 90% of the time and as crazy as it sounds…I measure or weigh and count just about everything I eat…Once in a while though, I like to go out or eat one of my moms or dads cooked meals…and that tends to be difficult because everything is a mixed meal…carbs and fats…At 23 years old, I probably shouldn’t be giving this much attention and worry to food.
[/quote]
Oh yeah, if you’re in a surplus, you have a different problem. In your case you just want to minimize fat gain. I also saw that 20% rule over at Lyles. I thought that was geared mainly to fat loss in a calorie deficit. If you’re in a calorie surplus, I wonder if that 20% is really a hard cut-off.
Oh well, I’m leaving town for a bit so I won’t get the chance to follow up on this. Good luck with your lean bulk. Most of Martins site seems devoted to cutting. Maybe you can find some people who bulked using leangains on other forums.
Could you guys possibly help me out with something unique that involves leangains. I have more free time and seem to be recovering well and feel as though I can add more volume/frequency to my workload.
I’m interested in doing a short 4 weeks of incooperating two a days on certain days. This is my idea so far…
[quote]beefjerky_7 wrote:
Would anyone with experience say that certain protocols with IF work better(working out completely fasted with the exceptions of BCAAs/Creatine)
Or having a small PWO meal like 1.5 hours - 2 hours before BCAA/Creatine intake?
It seems like the best results come from working out completely fasted w/BCAAs? I feel as if I would need at least 1 PWO meal before BCAA intake…[/quote]
I prefer just BCAAs. A lot of people do 1 pre workout meal or even 2…in fact, the originator of leangains does a pre workout meal protocol.
[quote]beefjerky_7 wrote:
Would anyone with experience say that certain protocols with IF work better(working out completely fasted with the exceptions of BCAAs/Creatine)
Or having a small PWO meal like 1.5 hours - 2 hours before BCAA/Creatine intake?
It seems like the best results come from working out completely fasted w/BCAAs? I feel as if I would need at least 1 PWO meal before BCAA intake…[/quote]
I doubt it makes much of a difference as long as your total energy (and macros) is dialed in. I am doing 1 pre-workout meal and it seems to work great, but I’ve also heard of great results fasted.
