Intelligent Design

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Simple solution:

Both Evolution and ID should be left to their respective places of worship.

Evolution – to the Humanists and Atheists out there.

ID – to the churches.

Both are “religious” concepts because both ask you to take a leap of faith since WE WERE NOT THERE and there is no way to verify any of it. Pure and simple Evolution is the “religion” of the Atheist and Creationism is the religion of the believer in God.

As a firm believer in God, I trust Him and the Bible as His Word. I cannot make anyone believe this – it is a work of God to have faith. But it is not science in the purest sense of the word.

So, if you agree to remove evolution from the science class, I would agree to not press for ID or Creationism. However, if you continue to want to indoctrinate our youth with your religious ideas, then certainly we have the right to present our religious ideas as well. After all, the government cannot favor one religion over another, now can they?

You cannot have it both ways…[/quote]

Awesome post! One of the best I have ever read.

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Both are “theories” both should be taught as such.

Only one is a scientific theory and deserves to be taught as such.

People need to learn the difference between what science calls a “theory” and a “hypothesis”. Even “laws” in science are subject to eventual revisions or corrections (before someone jumps in with “the LAW of gravity.”)

When something is accepted by the scientific community as an established theory, it means that there is a lot of evidence supporting it. There might be some counter cases and such, which indicate that the theory needs to be perfected or refined; but as a whole, the theory (which is a model to explain some real world phenomenon) is solid.

Evolution has many such problems and will probably see many adjustments done over the years. But it explains so many things so well that it is very unlikely to be replaced by an alternative theory.

I.D. takes all of the problems of evolution and solves them by saying “the Intelligent Designer did it.” This is basically untestable and unverifiable (unless someone can actually produce the Designer for and interview… anynone?)

That’s why I.D. is not a theory, but simply repackaged religious beliefs. Creationism ( http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Creationism ) was, of course, in dire need of repackaging. But doing so doesn’t make it science.[/quote]

I reread this thread and think that this is the post that I, as a science teacher, most agree with. Every field has something as its axioms, what we taken as a given. For us, it is the scientific method. ID does not use the same axioms. It simply does not qualify as science.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Simple solution:

Both Evolution and ID should be left to their respective places of worship.

Evolution – to the Humanists and Atheists out there.

ID – to the churches.

Both are “religious” concepts because both ask you to take a leap of faith since WE WERE NOT THERE and there is no way to verify any of it. Pure and simple Evolution is the “religion” of the Atheist and Creationism is the religion of the believer in God.

As a firm believer in God, I trust Him and the Bible as His Word. I cannot make anyone believe this – it is a work of God to have faith. But it is not science in the purest sense of the word.

So, if you agree to remove evolution from the science class, I would agree to not press for ID or Creationism. However, if you continue to want to indoctrinate our youth with your religious ideas, then certainly we have the right to present our religious ideas as well. After all, the government cannot favor one religion over another, now can they?

You cannot have it both ways…[/quote]

ID begins by hypothesizing a devine creator, then tries to verify same. Evolution begins with no assumptions and attempts to come up with a plausible and workable theory. There is nothing ‘faithful’ about science.

Having faith means to suspend your rational faculties and accept the existence of something for which no scientific proof exists. While Reason is not the only source of knowledge IMO (subjective experiences, such as a religious experience do qualify), it is what we must rely upon in passing judgments about the physical world. Therefore, ID cannot be a plausible, falsifiable theory of anything.

Here are the two premises on which the various theories of evolution are based:

  1. This is the evolutionary formula for making a universe:
    Nothing plus nothing = two elements plus time = 92 natural elements plus time = all physical laws and a completely structured universe of galaxies, systems, stars, planets, and moons orbiting in perfect balance and order.

  2. This is the evolutionary formula for making life:
    Dirt plus water plus time = living creatures.

Evolutionists theorize that the above two formulas can enable everything about us to make itself–with the exception of man-made things, such as automobiles or buildings. Complicated things, such as wooden boxes with nails in them, require thought, intelligence, and careful workmanship. But everything else about us in nature, such as hummingbirds and the human eye, is declared to be the result of accidental mishaps, random confusion, and time. You will not even need raw materials to begin with. They make themselves too.

Come on guys, are you serious?

Just one more:

Questions for Evolutionists:

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?

When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to surviv e, or the species? How do you explain this?)

How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occ urred if evolution were true?

And finally, Do you really believe everything came from nothing?

Boy am I late!

The world prospers on the free exchange of ideas. You WANT people of different minds to speak up.

That said, there is a place for everything. Intelligent Design offers a hypothesis but no hard facts. There are many hypotheses out there - too many to ever be named.

What makes Intelligent Design special? Its religious background? Well, if that’s the case, we find ourselves teaching it not because it’s any better than all other hypotheses… but because we find ourselves partial to its religion background.

I.D. SHOULD be taught in school in the interest of freedom of speech and information. It should be taught because you want the country to know what it entails so IT can decide on its own.
But it does not fit a science class bill. Because it’s based on religious beliefs rather than hard fact AND logic, it fits a religious class.

Well, that’s a problem for the I.D. people, because we all know you can’t shove religion down anyone’s throat. Nobody is forced to take any particular religious course. That’s where it gets ugly, because I.D. people desperately want everybody to learn about their theory.

Too bad the inquisition is long gone.

[quote]rlawrence wrote:
Just one more:

Questions for Evolutionists:

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?

When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to surviv e, or the species? How do you explain this?)

How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occ urred if evolution were true?

And finally, Do you really believe everything came from nothing?[/quote]

Your questions about space and time have nothing to do with evolution. Also, evolution makes no claims as to the origin of life, that’s abiogenesis.

That’s like someone teaching you how to squat, and you ask about the geologic processes that created the stone used in the concrete to build the facility that you’re in.

[quote]Jimmy Tango wrote:
bleu wrote:

I apologize if I conveyed that I had the opinion of wanting ID taught in public science curriculum. Whether I do or not was not at stake in my previous post.

I just was trying to point out that the discussion began as a thread devoted to whether or not ID ?ought (a moral concept)? to be taught in science class, and ended up discussing the integrity of various groups of peoples and not the issue at hand. I also wanted to point out logical fallacies into which I saw some fall.

Hope the thread continues on a logical path. Take care everyone

Yes, I mistook your post as being an argument for inclusion into school curriculum.

I also don’t understand why think this issue is anything more than just a clarification of what is acceptable when presenting scientific thought in as unbiased a manner as possible (or, in other words, as biased towards pure science as possible), especially when we’re trying to give children a chance to look at and understand our world in a scientific manner. The scientific method will never change because of religion.

In fact, I would suggest that the better people understand where science really ends and begins, the more certain they’ll be of their religious convictions. It makes no sense to deny what the Creator’s (if there is one) very own creation continues to tell us time and time again. Science is not a threat to anyone with true Faith–so why do they act like it is?[/quote]

Dude, you don’t seem to understand science.

Science is bias! The scientific process starts with a hypothesis. In order to have a hypothesis you have to believe that something will happen in a certain way or that something causes something else, etc. In other words, you have your own BIAS and you then try and prove that bias correct.

So what is the difference in scientists starting out with the bias that the world evolved or the world was created? They are both biases that are trying to be proved.

So the reason ID people get pissed off at evolutionists is that ID people are treated as if they are biased and evolutionists not, when they both are biased.

Evolutionists have their hypotheses proven wrong all the time and yet they maintain the same underlying belief that the world evolved. That is bias my friend. If they were truly scientific, as the actual scientific method dictates, they would revise or totally throw out their assumptions after proven incorrect. But since they have never done that, it just demonstrates that evolutionists are not any more scientific than ID people.

So Bro, it’s all bias.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Simple solution:

Both Evolution and ID should be left to their respective places of worship.

Evolution – to the Humanists and Atheists out there.

ID – to the churches.

Both are “religious” concepts because both ask you to take a leap of faith since WE WERE NOT THERE and there is no way to verify any of it. Pure and simple Evolution is the “religion” of the Atheist and Creationism is the religion of the believer in God.

As a firm believer in God, I trust Him and the Bible as His Word. I cannot make anyone believe this – it is a work of God to have faith. But it is not science in the purest sense of the word.

So, if you agree to remove evolution from the science class, I would agree to not press for ID or Creationism. However, if you continue to want to indoctrinate our youth with your religious ideas, then certainly we have the right to present our religious ideas as well. After all, the government cannot favor one religion over another, now can they?

You cannot have it both ways…

ID begins by hypothesizing a devine creator, then tries to verify same. Evolution begins with no assumptions and attempts to come up with a plausible and workable theory. There is nothing ‘faithful’ about science.

Having faith means to suspend your rational faculties and accept the existence of something for which no scientific proof exists. While Reason is not the only source of knowledge IMO (subjective experiences, such as a religious experience do qualify), it is what we must rely upon in passing judgments about the physical world. Therefore, ID cannot be a plausible, falsifiable theory of anything.
[/quote]

Sorry, bro but this is simply NOT TRUE. Your just plain wrong on the following points:

(1) You say that evolution has no assumptions and then just tries to find a plausible and workable theory.

Well, evolution does have assumptions, among which is the really big one…That there is NO GOD OR DIVINE CREATOR AND THAT SIMPLE CHANCE AND CIRCUMSTANCE AFTER SOME SORT OF BANG OF SOME SORT OF MATERIAL THAT APPARENTLY CAME FROM NOWHERE CREATED EVERYTHING. Then evolution (not ID or Creationism) goes around trying to prove its (false) assumption. It does this by:

a) Trying to prove that the Universe is billions and billions and billions of years old so that the millions of years that evolution needs to be workable would then seem correct.

b) It looks at fossils, rock formations, and the world around us through the prism of the billions of years and of random chance when making its conclusions.

(2) You say that having faith means to suspend your faculties and accept something without scientific proof.

Again, just wrong. A believer in the Holy Scriptures does not have to suspend anything. Faith is hope that is not seen. If I were to find a Rolex watch in the middle of the desert with nobody around, I wouldn’t still conclude that someone had to make it, that it could not have just “popped out.” I don’t need to suspend my reason to conclude this – I would have faith that it is correct because it is obvious. I could go on, but I don’t want to turn this into a Bible study, but suffice if one would take the time to compare the prophetic portion of God’s Word with World History, you would see the truth of the Bible and thus could rely upon its other teachings.

Let me add one final point and that is that Evoution DOES indeed require faith. This is so because evolution teaches:

That the Earth came out of some “big bang” of something long ago that apparently wasn’t created but came from somewhere. Anyway, as the Earth cooled it rained on the rocks and after a long long time little “beasties” came out into the “sterile soup” and then developed after a long long time into things that swam that after a long long time grew fins then feet then got out of the water became a monkey which became us after a long long time…

Long long time ago, very far far away…

Hey, it reads like a FAIRY TALE! You must have faith to believe it and, in my opinion, suspend reason because it is most ridiculous.

Man doesn’t want to believe that God created us and the world, because if we believe that, we then must believe that we need to serve Him. Our sinful nature doesn’t want to hear that.

I would challenge any of you who want to believe that evolution is true to read the Bible (Gospel of John is a good place to start) and really investigate the claims of the One True God – The God of the Bible.

May you find (as I have) the rich blessing of the Lord.

Stevio,

I think you missed the point:

(1) To be a scientific theory, that theory must satisfy the test of FALSIFIABILITY. This means that there must be a way for another researcher to test, and if possible, falsify the theory. How does one attempt to falsify the premise ‘An intelligient being designed all of this?’

(2) Science never asserts to ‘prove’ anything. When testing a theory, a scientist will attempt to find a COUNTEREXAMPLE. An example is never a proof.

Here’s an explanatory example of why ID doesn’t qualify: Suppose I wish to prove that the product of two odd numbers is always odd. Is it enough to say, “Well, 3 times 7 is 21. 5 times 9 is 45. Therefore, the product of ANY two odds is always odd.” No, this only proves something about those pairs of numbers, not ALL odds. To cite lots of examples of supposedly ID doesn’t explain anything. ID begins with faith and attempts to justify same. This is just not how science works.

Stevio,

I hope you don’t take my posts as in anyway disparaging faith. Having twice had profoundly religious experiences, I know that there is a God and I am devoutly religious. I just don’t think that ID qualifies as a scientific theory (from the point of view of an old ‘biased’ science teacher :slight_smile:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Stevio,

I hope you don’t take my posts as in anyway disparaging faith. Having twice had profoundly religious experiences, I know that there is a God and I am devoutly religious. I just don’t think that ID qualifies as a scientific theory (from the point of view of an old ‘biased’ science teacher :)[/quote]

Hey Headhunter,

No problem – I am actually enjoying the discussion. My faith is firm and strong and God welcomes all who come to Him.

Let me clarify a few points from a not so old mathematician:

(1) I understand that a proof is not a proof unless you can prove it for ALL cases – as with a mathematical proof of a hypothesis which then becomes a Theorem.

(2) I AGREE with you that ID is not science in the true sense of the word because you cannot possibly prove it false. That is correct. It is a form of faith.

(3) However, and I think this is where we disagree – I don’t understand how you cannot see this as being the same (i.e. unable to be proven false and therefore not science) about the “Theory” of Evolution.

a) None of its tenants can be proven false because quite simply it is impossible to prove false the “fact” that we evolved. Nobody ever saw one species become another species and since we were not there at the Creation, it is another form of FAITH. It is actually FAITH in the fact that there is no God or Supreme Creator and therefore it truly is “religious” in nature.

Again, the main thrust of what I am trying to show is that EVOLUTION ALSO IS NOT SCIENCE FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS THAT WE BOTH AGREE THAT ID IS NOT SCIENCE.

My only point here is that you have to either take both out of the schools and teach science, or you have to put both in because these are the two most popular and quite frankly the only explanations which man has come up with. It is not right to indoctrinate our youth with faith from only one side. If as the courts have ruled it is unconstitutional to teach Christian faith in the schools, then it should be equally unconstitutional to teach atheistic faith in the schools also.

Of course you do realize that the Bible’s explanation preceded Darwin’s by about 5850 years!

Think about it with an open mind…

[quote]rlawrence wrote:
Just one more:

Questions for Evolutionists:

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?

When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to surviv e, or the species? How do you explain this?)

How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occ urred if evolution were true?

And finally, Do you really believe everything came from nothing?[/quote]

EXCELLENT POST!

Yes, I challenge our friends out there to answer these excellent questions using only evolutionary theory to explain them.

“Long, long ago and far far away, some rock came out of nowhere and BOOM…”

Bring it on!

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
rlawrence wrote:
Just one more:

Questions for Evolutionists:

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?

When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to surviv e, or the species? How do you explain this?)

How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occ urred if evolution were true?

And finally, Do you really believe everything came from nothing?

EXCELLENT POST!

Yes, I challenge our friends out there to answer these excellent questions using only evolutionary theory to explain them.

“Long, long ago and far far away, some rock came out of nowhere and BOOM…”

Bring it on![/quote]

I second that! Bring it on!

At least just admit that there is no explanation or even “assumption” that you have to offer to any of these questions that doesn’t sound absolutely rediculous.

That would be a start.

Is archeology a branch of science?

A couple of things to consider.

  1. In 1978 Ron Wyatt (I don’t know if I trust all of his claims, but the following is pure fact) researched some of the places in the Bible that the ‘supposed’ Exodus went through. He went there himself, and found a natural twisting pathway winding through the mountains to the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba (Part of the Red Sea). It seemed an obvious path to him at the time, so he sent divers into that area of the Red Sea. The following is from his website.

“On diving down to the sea bed, in 1978, Ron Wyatt and his two sons found and photographed numerous coral encrusted chariot parts. Several dives since then have revealed more and more evidence. One of his finds included an eight spoke chariot wheel, which Ron took to the director of Egyptian Antiquities, Dr. Nassif Mohammed Hassan. After examining it he immediately announced it to be of the eighteenth dynasty, dating the exodus to 1446 BC. When asked how he knew this Dr. Hassan explained that the eight spoke wheel was only used during this period, the time of Ramases II and Tutmoses (Moses). Chariot boxes, horse and human skeletal remains, four, six and eight spoke chariot wheels all lie as a silent testimony to the miracle of the parting of the Red Sea.”

Hmm, so we have a biblical account, and evidence supporting the biblical account.

  1. A world wide flood. There is evidence all over the world of a gargantuan deluge that took place circa 2500 BC. Not only physical evidence, but stories and legends from old and unconnected cultures around the world (From Indian tribes in Arizona, to Baylonia to China, over 500 as a matter of fact).

And guess what, we have ancient writings about a flood in our Bible.

Isaiah wrote c. 700 BC, and from his writings we see he was WAY ahead of science.

An old testament reader back then knew that the earth was round (Isaiah 40:22),
there are verses about ‘paths in the seas’ that are brought to light by recent oceanic discoveries, and much more.

So here’s the thing. I have written evidence coupled with archeological evidence. It ‘makes sense’ then that the whole bible is true, doesn’t it?

WAIT! You cry, no it doesn’t! Well, isn’t that exactly what evolutionists do? You see variation within kind, er … I mean, MICRO-evolution, and say, “Well doesn’t MACRO evolution just make sense then?”

You take a step of FAITH. Evolution is your religion.

I guess ID/Creationism comes in because Christians are tired of the ‘one-sided science’. Why don’t you hear about chariot wheels and horse bones found on the floor of the Red Sea when and where Moses was supposed to have crossed it in the class rooms? Why don’t you hear about evidence of a world wide flood in the classrooms? Why don’t you hear that in the Old Testament,700 BC God’s people know from their bible that the earth was round? Why do you hear evolution is fact in the classrooms, when your only fact is variation in kind?

This is the main quandry to me, I suppose.

[quote]rlawrence wrote:
Why don’t you hear about chariot wheels and horse bones found on the floor of the Red Sea when and where Moses was supposed to have crossed it in the class rooms? Why don’t you hear about evidence of a world wide flood in the classrooms? Why don’t you hear that in the Old Testament,700 BC God’s people know from their bible that the earth was round? Why do you hear evolution is fact in the classrooms, when your only fact is variation in kind?

[/quote]

Because it’s all crap you read about on the internet?

You know what?

I give up. You are right. Evolution is my religion and I pray to the trinity of Darwin, Dawkins and Buss every night before I go to sleep.

I even go as far as believing that religious ideas are like mind-viruses that exploit the way the human mind is wired (because of evolutionary adaptations).

You know, big Alpha Male in the sky, that has perfect strategic information, seems to be most concerned about things that scare us (death, sexuality), allmighty, everywhere, that sort of thing.

Adult men that really believe that stuff? I?d say you can?t be serious, but of course you are.

I don?t know if I think that this is scary, hilarious or just a giant opportunity, because in a world where grown men cannot live without their version of Santa Claus, who is there to stop me from achieving anything.

Reality…

(Shamelessly stolen from another thread)

[quote]rlawrence wrote:
Just one more:

Questions for Evolutionists:

Where did the space for the universe come from?

Where did matter come from?

Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?

When, where, why, and how did life come from non-living matter?

[/quote]

the first six questions have nothing to do with the theory of evolution…

under the Ionic Clay model, organic compounds were replicating prior to life…

there was not a sudden shift to only sexual reproduction. Many “lower” lifeforms can reproduce both sexually and asexually. The first were probably bacteria that exchanged genetic information (which some still do) prior to mitosis…

this almost a philosophical question, and there are a few views. Organisms have a huge drive to reprduce. Via natural selection, the organisms that could produce the most viable offspring that could reproduce survived. Those that didn’t went extinct. Other ideas suggest that the driving mechanism is DNA itself, and and organisms and life are a by-product to facilitate DNA replication…

because you are using a different alphabet. DNA only uses 4 nucleotides, and all life uses the same four. Using only those letters you can still produce a massive array of combinations…

I suppose in some isolated instances it could feasably be construed as such, but when the whole picture is examined many similarities are vestigal, and many others that have similar function should have similar design under such a umbrella, and they do not…

through replication and division whole strands of DNA may be transferred when the become intertwined durring anaphase…

[quote]
And finally, Do you really believe everything came from nothing?[/quote]

once again, this question has nothing to do with the theory of evolution…

I would like to add that I believe in God and I am a christian and I see nothing wrong with the theory of evolution…

so I ask a return question or two for the fundamentalists…

do you think that God is capable (powerful/intelligent enough) of creating a universe in which evolutionary processes work? Do you doubt God’s capabilities to do this?


thanks google…awesome!

[quote]rlawrence wrote:
Just one more:

Questions for Evolutionists:[/quote]

I would first like to say that I find the term evolutionist to be stupid. Second, these questions do not all pertain to the realm of evolution. A lot of them are cosmological in nature, and some although they are related to evolutionary biology deal in a way with information theory. I suppose the main reasons I am choosing to reply are these: I have degrees in physics and computer science, and I am extremely bored and cannot sleep.

Forgive me if these answers seem somewhat cryptic or incomplete. One could, and several people have, write several books on the subjects you have brought up.

The technically correct question would be where did the space-time that our universe exists “in” come from (as space and time in cosmological terms are quite intertwined). The best answer that I know of to date is that it is the result of a quantum fluctuation in the ground state of absolute vacuum.

The more fundamenteal cosomological question would be…where did all the energy come from…as once you have energy, the creation of matter appears quite academic. The answer, brace yourself, a quantum fluctuation in the ground state of absolute vacuum. How could such a thing account for the massive amount of energy that we see around us in the universe? The answer to that is that it appears that the total sum of all the energy in the universe is indeed zero, or very nearly zero…which is what would be expected of a universe that was the product of a quantum fluctuation.

I have no idea. Do you? If so, please prove it to the best of your ability. At the very least give some reason why I should believe your idea over holding the position that they didn’t need to come from anywhere.

How is it exactly that matter is “perfectly organized”? And for that matter…to what end? Your question contains a rather huge assumption in other words. In a cosmological sense, matter really isn’t all that organized. Of course we do see organization of some kind in both large and small scales. However, this is to be expected whenever you have a system of rules such as the physical laws that appear to govern our universe. Our universe, however, seems to consist of large numbers of small pockets of organization surrounded by an incredibly vast sea of almost complete chaos.

As said above…the total energy seems to be practically or actually zero. That is over the very large scale though, and in such a system small pockets of large positive energy can indeed form and give rise to what we call organization. Where the initial small amount of positive energy to kick it all of came from is again…a quantum fluctuation in the ground state of absolute vacuum.

Wow…hmmm…I can only give you vague answers for the first two of those questions, the third is not within the realm of science to discuss, and I can of course speculate (with supporting evidence) on the fourth. When? Some time in the distant past, I don’t really feel like looking up the best current estimate for you. Where? Presumably somewhere on this planet at that time (although the idea that “life” could have first formed somewhere else and been transplanted here through stellar collision cannot be dismissed out of hand). Why? I have no idea. Why not? Why does it require some underlying meaning at all? Please prove that there is such a necessity. How? Basic organic chemistry. The formation of self-replicating organic molecules that once formed, evolved according to chemical laws and the force of natural selection into the first self-replicating organic entity that we would call “life”. We can of course produce many kinds of self-replicating organic molecules. We can also currently produce “life” depending on your definition of the word, as last I checked scientists were actually creating viruses in a laboratory environment.

Do chemical structure really need to “learn” the laws that govern chemical interactions? Hmmmm…

This is just off the top of my head…but perhaps it reproduced with itself. Never heard of a hermaphrodite?

I don’t really think your treatment of group dynamics will stand up here. Reproduction, increasing the number of entities in a group, does not always lead to a decrease in the chance of survival. Increased numbers can in fact lead to several things that drastically increase the chance of survival. It is only when the environment cannot support larger numbers that reproduction at a rapid rate ends up being a negative. As for an underlying reason why living things seem to be “driven” to reproduce…perhaps because we seem to be the direct descendants of organic molecules whose sole function was reproducing themselves.

That is a horrible analogy. Here is a question for you…has everything that could possibly be written in the English language already been written? In other words, is it impossible for me to combine words in this language to produce a “meaningful” result which has in fact never been produced before? If not, then someone has already written this exact post before I actually wrote it…hmmm…

Along the language line as well, if genes must be letters, new words are being created all the time (as well as new meanings being ascribed to old words when place in new contexts). Language evolves.

Possible? Sure. Now, tell me why I should prefer that conclusion over the conclusion that it is because they share common ancestors. One has utility, in that it fits with a theory that is both descriptive and predictive. It tells me something about my world, and seems to fit with other available evidence quite well. What are the reasons I should choose another conclusion over it?

The fact that something is possible is not a reason to believe it.

There is again, an assumption there. Who says that natural selection only works with available information and tends to keep species stable? What exactly does that mean in the first place?

First, just because there are limited numbers of possible combinations in a genetic code…does not mean that they have all manifested themselves (in fact I’m willing to bet that only a vanishingly small percentage of them actually have). So when these combinations that have never existed before emerge, are they not “new”? There are all kinds of simulated systems that can be pointed to that start with a set of basic rules and an initial condition and then become increasingly complex and ordered.

This is a rather deep philosophical question here. I don’t know if we are really capable of grappling with the actualities of it. The very idea of NOTHING is troubling at best. Can there really be nothing? The very phrasing of the question implies that nothing is in fact something in itself. So I guess I would have to answer this with a very conditional yes.

How would you answer it? Did God not create “everything” from nothingness? From whence then came God?