[quote]dhickey wrote:
To me this is nothing more than intellectual dishonestly when it come to correlation .vs causation. It happens all the time. [/quote]
To adapt a saying: Most times one should not attribute to intellectual dishonesty what can just as well be explained by stupidity, narrow-mindedness, or rigid thinking.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Doyle wrote:
You seem to have a lot of distain for faith, their can be many positive outcomes of having faith, but there is no benefit in beleiving in nothing (not sugesting you believe in nothing).
Believing in Santa Claus brings happiness to my children, but at some point I expect them to grow up and recognize the fairy tale for what it is.
I see religion in the same light. Yes, there are probably some psychological benefits to believing that an omniscient, omnipotent being is out there looking after your best interests. There can also be significant disadvantages when people base their lives on beliefs not grounded in fact. That was certainly the case for me as a gay man fighting my nature due to misguided religious beliefs. It is also true for Muslim terrorists, Christian inquisitors, and many other examples of religion doing more harm than good.
Why not simply adopt the positive values, and see the fairy tales for what they are?[/quote]
Chesterton on Santa Claus:
[i]What has happened to me has been the very reverse of what appears to be the experience of most of my friends. Instead of dwindling to a point, Santa Claus has grown larger and larger in my life until he fills almost the whole of it.
It happened in this way. As a child I was faced with a phenomenon requiring explanation. I hung up at the end of my bed an empty stocking, which in the morning became a full stocking. I had done nothing to produce the things that filled it. I had not worked for them, or made them or helped to make them. I had not even been good - far from it. And the explanation was that a certain being whom people called Santa Claus was benevolently disposed toward me; what we believed was that a certain man did give us those toys for nothing.
And, as I say, I believe it still. I have merely extended the idea. Then I only wondered who put the toys in the stocking; now I wonder who put the stocking by the bed, and the bed in the room, and the room in the house, and the house on the planet, and the great planet in the void. Once I only thanked Santa Claus for a few dolls and crackers, now I thank him for stars and street faces and wine and the great sea. Once I thought it delightful and astonishing to find a present so big that it only went halfway into the stocking. Now I am delighted and astonished every morning to find a present so big that it takes two stockings to hold it, and then leaves a great deal outside; it is the large and preposterous present of myself, as to the origin of which I can offer no suggestion except that Santa Claus gave it to me in a fit of peculiarly fantastic good will.[/i]
Nice quote, thanks for sharing.
…it really is a matter of scale, time and chance:
The universe is vast. It’s bigger than you can imagine, and then some. It contains trillions of stars and planets, and it contains all the building blocks for life in abundance. Given enough time, a big enough scale and plenty of ingrediënts, the chance of life evolving due to shere chance WILL occur. Obviously it has occured, not because an intelligence willed it, but because it was bound to happen.
…i happily concede that the universe, and life itself is a mystery. Explaining this mystery away by claiming an even bigger mystery is responsible for all of this is intellectual laziness, and gives rise to a dangerous form of laziness: ignorance…
[quote]flea333 wrote:
How did chaos produce mathematical beauty that exists in almost everything in the universe?
I’m just saying the universe is intelligent, biological organisms contain intelligence that cannot logically and consistently be explained by a non-intelligent source.[/quote]
This merely raises a theory as to whether God exists. It does not prove it, if that is what you are stating (which I assume you were).
I’ve heard this argument before, only it revolved around a coke can. The guy insisted that this idea proved the existence of God. Only thing this “proves” is that the people who buy into it as actual, solid “proof” are fools.
As a lifelong anglo-catholic, to be honest I’ve never understood this debate.
God and evolution/intelligence design are eminently compatible.
Believers look at the central, stubborn mystery (“that everything came from nothing”), and posit that perhaps some intelligent being is responsible for creating something out of nothing, and for setting things in motion. Of course, such a supposition proves nothing; but this is not the basis of faith - rather, it follows from it.
So-called atheists look at this mystery and simply try to wish it away, as no scientific theory I know of can account for it. I’m not convinced that this is any more of a “rational” response to the mystery than that of believers.
At any rate, exactly what is the problem here? No one can “prove” that God started this whole thing in motion (though Aquinas comes awfully close); but no one can prove otherwise either.
Until scientists can account for how everything came out of nothing, however, the supposition that God is behind it all is just as plausible as any other narrative.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
As a lifelong anglo-catholic, to be honest I’ve never understood this debate.
God and evolution/intelligence design are eminently compatible.
Believers look at the central, stubborn mystery (“that everything came from nothing”), and posit that perhaps some intelligent being is responsible for creating something out of nothing, and for setting things in motion. Of course, such a supposition proves nothing; but this is not the basis of faith - rather, it follows from it.
So-called atheists look at this mystery and simply try to wish it away, as no scientific theory I know of can account for it. I’m not convinced that this is any more of a “rational” response to the mystery than that of believers.
At any rate, exactly what is the problem here? No one can “prove” that God started this whole thing in motion (though Aquinas comes awfully close); but no one can prove otherwise either.
Until scientists can account for how everything came out of nothing, however, the supposition that God is behind it all is just as plausible as any other narrative.
[/quote]
I agree with pretty much what you wrote. I also agree that it is possible to have God as well as evolution; I see no incompatibility with that, if God did exist.
My personal opinion on it is I refuse to believe in God without proof because of the sheer magnitude of the consequences that will naturally flow from such belief. It would most certainly change my life, and so I cannot believe in it without compelling proof.
For people who don’t understand evolution and hence don’t ‘believe’ in it:
Just because YOU don’t understand it doesn’t mean that no one else does. People who are a lot smarter than you and who have an extensive back ground studying it. Just because YOU have looked at a couple of websites and don’t get it doesn’t make it any less true.
[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
As a lifelong anglo-catholic, to be honest I’ve never understood this debate.
God and evolution/intelligence design are eminently compatible.
Believers look at the central, stubborn mystery (“that everything came from nothing”), and posit that perhaps some intelligent being is responsible for creating something out of nothing, and for setting things in motion. Of course, such a supposition proves nothing; but this is not the basis of faith - rather, it follows from it.
So-called atheists look at this mystery and simply try to wish it away, as no scientific theory I know of can account for it. I’m not convinced that this is any more of a “rational” response to the mystery than that of believers.
At any rate, exactly what is the problem here? No one can “prove” that God started this whole thing in motion (though Aquinas comes awfully close); but no one can prove otherwise either.
Until scientists can account for how everything came out of nothing, however, the supposition that God is behind it all is just as plausible as any other narrative.
I agree with pretty much what you wrote. I also agree that it is possible to have God as well as evolution; I see no incompatibility with that, if God did exist.
My personal opinion on it is I refuse to believe in God without proof because of the sheer magnitude of the consequences that will naturally flow from such belief. It would most certainly change my life, and so I cannot believe in it without compelling proof.
[/quote]
Well, you know, the nature of faith is a complex one; and, btw, faith requires the concurrent existence of doubt. Saint Paul said that faith that is “seen” (where proof is in our possession) isn’t faith. It isn’t faith at that point; it’s a certainty. “Proof” would make faith superfluous.
But let me ask you this: are you prepared to accept as true the narrative of evolution in the absence of conclusive proof?
[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
My personal opinion on it is I refuse to believe in God without proof because of the sheer magnitude of the consequences that will naturally flow from such belief. It would most certainly change my life, and so I cannot believe in it without compelling proof.
[/quote]
Yes the first law of thermodynamics states what is known about the universe as we see it. Therefore to have created matter something outside this “law” of our universe must have enacted it. The website above certainly does not prove God but to me it is fingerprints of a creator. What else could have planted that number in almost everything in nature?
The quote above shows that you are biasing your belief on the basis of a consequence of that belief. How is that scientific in any way? I totally understand your perspective and I believe that is precisely what drives many to the comfort of the common belief in “enough time with enough chances can produce anything theory”.
However I think this is not just mental laziness but moral. Enough time and anything can happen? Really? Can 100,000,000 hurricanes blowing through a junk yard produce a fully operational pristine looking 747? There was a paint bucket in the junk yard too so there should be a perfect coat of paint on there, with none on the windows of course. Why doesn’t this seem logical?
Because the forces of nature that must be applied to make this happen are extremely strategic. There are not enough random forces (processes) that could apply the forces necessary to even randomly do those things. There are not enough years in a billion of our universes lifetimes to even randomly organize a deck of cards the same twice in a row. That numbers game is a mathematical joke. Why then is everything apparently “guided” by laws?
Please look at how a cell works and explain to me how such a perfectly operational system provide any meaningful function of life in any semi-developed form. ( Cell (biology) - Wikipedia )
If the cell couldn’t operate without one of processes, say reading the RNA, the cell must have been produced all at one time. This is faith on my part I concede, I am an engineer, not a biologist. However I wish for a biologist to educate me.
I’m not saying because we don’t know how it happened I’m throwing my hands up and saying, oh well, too complex, must be a God. I’m saying, from what we DO know about our world shows the awesome and perfect complexity that is to me only rationally explained by a force outside our visible and testable realm. Possibly the same realm string theorists or quantum physicists conclude must exist.
But the point precisely is that there is an end to understanding and that is where the beginning of belief and faith comes in. Where no knowledge exists we take a choice at a crossroads. I believe I see God evidenced everywhere in creation. Such beauty and perfection and apparent divine guidance has absolutely nothing to do with time and chance given the vast space of impossibility between the two.
Ultimately everyone is responsible for putting together the puzzle pieces on their own and defending it. Education and intellect are no position for knowing beyond this universe. There are so many unanswered questions I’ve sure the evolutionary theory will take all kinds of twists and turns.
Scientists will find a way without God - it’s our nature, it’s our ultimate goal and desire. Who would want to self-inflict bondage to the belief of an unseen God? I completely understand your point of view, but I do not have enough faith to believe that way.
The question to me is, does the Bible provide any source of truth relevant to our world? Does “good” and “evil” in the book have any sort of rationality and evidence today? I believe it does. Even the prophecies about the end times and the middle east are true so far.
You could look at the world the way the Bible describes where Satan is the ruler of the world and taking on people to accept “sin” as acceptable and tolerable. And “sin” in the Bible will lead to destruction. It always has in history and always will.
There are many interesting Bible facts that show the book has an been written by something more intelligent than it’s authors. First look at the website above at the “theology” and bible section to show how the anti-christ is related to anti-phi and how the Ark of the Convenant, the Ark, were all built to the specifications approximating phi.
As someone interested in fitness and health I also find it interested that over 3000 years ago God instructed his people to make bread with a specific recipe. I eat this same recipe of bread today sold in health food stores: Ezekiel 4:9 bread. Ya know why I eat this bread? The grains and legumes in it create a complete protein almost as usable as egg or milk protein. Hmm, that was some guess.
Not to mention the proof that the “unclean” foods actually are likely to contain parasitic organisms and cysts (pork, shellfish). I was watching an interesting History channel special on the scientific relevance of Biblical prophecies in Revelation of the end times. Everything prophesied has a scientific explanation we know about today having a similar consequence of disaster.
Here’s a website that looks like it has some interesting points:
http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/questions-of-christians
Again, I can’t prove I’m right, for sure I rely on faith, but I can darn well defend my belief to anyone until they walk away or concede to being just as stupid as I. Cause it doesn’t matter how many details or facts you know, the fundamental questions are the pillars of all we know. I just ask that everyone have their own account and belief in humility - not concession, just humble wisdom.
[quote]flea333 wrote:
Again, I can’t prove I’m right, for sure I rely on faith, but I can darn well defend my belief to anyone until they walk away or concede to being just as stupid as I. Cause it doesn’t matter how many details or facts you know, the fundamental questions are the pillars of all we know. I just ask that everyone have their own account and belief in humility - not concession, just humble wisdom.
[/quote]
…i don’t want to be as stupid as you. Whatevever gave you that idea?! You are willfully ignorant of facts in favor of beliefs that provide you with warm fuzzies. That is not an admirable position. That is not something you deserve to be patted on the back for. Instead, you and all of you who believe alike should be ridiculed and laughed at, and everything that you and your kind want to achieve based on your beliefs should be ignored…
…we are in dire need of a second Enlightenment, to rid this planet of all stupefying religious beliefs that incapacitates mankind to do what’s good for mankind. Beit christianity, islam, judaism and whatever other -ism conmen can think of, wipe the slate clean… /rant
[quote]ephrem wrote:
flea333 wrote:
Again, I can’t prove I’m right, for sure I rely on faith, but I can darn well defend my belief to anyone until they walk away or concede to being just as stupid as I. Cause it doesn’t matter how many details or facts you know, the fundamental questions are the pillars of all we know. I just ask that everyone have their own account and belief in humility - not concession, just humble wisdom.
…i don’t want to be as stupid as you. Whatevever gave you that idea?! You are willfully ignorant of facts in favor of beliefs that provide you with warm fuzzies. That is not an admirable position. That is not something you deserve to be patted on the back for. Instead, you and all of you who believe alike should be ridiculed and laughed at, and everything that you and your kind want to achieve based on your beliefs should be ignored…
…we are in dire need of a second Enlightenment, to rid this planet of all stupefying religious beliefs that incapacitates mankind to do what’s good for mankind. Beit christianity, islam, judaism and whatever other -ism conmen can think of, wipe the slate clean… /rant[/quote]
You really ought to learn more about religions before making pronouncements upon them. You’re displaying a profound degree of ignorance about them in your posts. At least, that would be the truly scientific, enlightened thing to do anyway.
You come off as a bigot who is deeply imbued with unexamined dogmas of your own. Is that what you mean by “enlightenment”?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
flea333 wrote:
Again, I can’t prove I’m right, for sure I rely on faith, but I can darn well defend my belief to anyone until they walk away or concede to being just as stupid as I. Cause it doesn’t matter how many details or facts you know, the fundamental questions are the pillars of all we know. I just ask that everyone have their own account and belief in humility - not concession, just humble wisdom.
…i don’t want to be as stupid as you. Whatevever gave you that idea?! You are willfully ignorant of facts in favor of beliefs that provide you with warm fuzzies. That is not an admirable position. That is not something you deserve to be patted on the back for. Instead, you and all of you who believe alike should be ridiculed and laughed at, and everything that you and your kind want to achieve based on your beliefs should be ignored…
…we are in dire need of a second Enlightenment, to rid this planet of all stupefying religious beliefs that incapacitates mankind to do what’s good for mankind. Beit christianity, islam, judaism and whatever other -ism conmen can think of, wipe the slate clean… /rant
You really ought to learn more about religions before making pronouncements upon them. You’re displaying a profound degree of ignorance about them in your posts. At least, that would be the truly scientific, enlightened thing to do anyway.
You come off as a bigot who is deeply imbued with unexamined dogmas of your own. Is that what you mean by “enlightenment”?
[/quote]
…please spare me your righteous indignation. 2000 years of Abrahamic religious influence, and this is what you can come up with? Religious beliefs are lies perpetuated through ignorance, fueled by an addiction to emotion in order to sooth fear and the quench doubt. Altough you have every right to believe whatever you want, that does not require me to respect those beliefs…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
flea333 wrote:
Again, I can’t prove I’m right, for sure I rely on faith, but I can darn well defend my belief to anyone until they walk away or concede to being just as stupid as I. Cause it doesn’t matter how many details or facts you know, the fundamental questions are the pillars of all we know. I just ask that everyone have their own account and belief in humility - not concession, just humble wisdom.
…i don’t want to be as stupid as you. Whatevever gave you that idea?! You are willfully ignorant of facts in favor of beliefs that provide you with warm fuzzies. That is not an admirable position. That is not something you deserve to be patted on the back for. Instead, you and all of you who believe alike should be ridiculed and laughed at, and everything that you and your kind want to achieve based on your beliefs should be ignored…
…we are in dire need of a second Enlightenment, to rid this planet of all stupefying religious beliefs that incapacitates mankind to do what’s good for mankind. Beit christianity, islam, judaism and whatever other -ism conmen can think of, wipe the slate clean… /rant
You really ought to learn more about religions before making pronouncements upon them. You’re displaying a profound degree of ignorance about them in your posts. At least, that would be the truly scientific, enlightened thing to do anyway.
You come off as a bigot who is deeply imbued with unexamined dogmas of your own. Is that what you mean by “enlightenment”?
…please spare me your righteous indignation. 2000 years of Abrahamic religious influence, and this is what you can come up with? Religious beliefs are lies perpetuated through ignorance, fueled by an addiction to emotion in order to sooth fear and the quench doubt. Altough you have every right to believe whatever you want, that does not require me to respect those beliefs…
[/quote]
The only righteous indignation is being displayed by you.
Your rant above is nothing more than than that: a rant. You haven’t bothered to understand what you’re criticizing, but instead are relying on pre-fabricated notions about religion. How scientific of you! If that sort of dogmatism is what you call “enlightenment,” you don’t really know all that much about enlightenment either.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
…please spare me your righteous indignation. 2000 years of Abrahamic religious influence, and this is what you can come up with? Religious beliefs are lies perpetuated through ignorance, fueled by an addiction to emotion in order to sooth fear and the quench doubt. Altough you have every right to believe whatever you want, that does not require me to respect those beliefs…
The only righteous indignation is being displayed by you.
Your rant above is nothing more than than that: a rant. You haven’t bothered to understand what you’re criticizing, but instead are relying on pre-fabricated notions about religion. How scientific of you! If that sort of dogmatism is what you call “enlightenment,” you don’t really know all that much about enlightenment either.
[/quote]
…what do you know about what i understand? Just because my opinion conflict with your sentiments and beliefs does not mean i’ve not bothered to understand anything. In fact, if i may so bold, i understand more about the structure and functioning of the psyche or ego than you give me credit for. Even bolder perhaps, i know there is no divine subtext to the beliefs people hold so dear. The religious constructs are there to dull the mind, and to cease the questioning of authority. Those emersed in the religious mirage of their own doing have chosen a path of least resistance, and that isn’t limited to christianity at all…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…what do you know about what i understand?
[/quote]
What do you know about the understanding of, say, a Christian? You seem to feel perfectly fine in judging other folks and their understanding on the basis of their beliefs. I’m just holding up a mirror to your bigotry.
No, but your warmed-over diatribe indicates, to me at least, that you actually have very little experience with religion. And instead are parroting nonsense.
You KNOW this do you? Where’s your proof? Or, is this a central dogma that you accept upon faith?
The deepest, most profound questioning (of social and political orders & powers) have come from persons immersed in faith.
Still proselytizing for your own little secular religeon, eh?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Until scientists can account for how everything came out of nothing, however, the supposition that God is behind it all is just as plausible as any other narrative.
[/quote]
Unless, as already pointed out, matter and energy have always existed. Fundamentalists are fond of setting up the ex nihilo assumption as fact, then knocking it down.
[quote]forlife wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Until scientists can account for how everything came out of nothing, however, the supposition that God is behind it all is just as plausible as any other narrative.
Unless, as already pointed out, matter and energy have always existed. [/quote]
^^ this, of course, is not a fact either.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…what do you know about what i understand?
What do you know about the understanding of, say, a Christian? You seem to feel perfectly fine in judging other folks and their understanding on the basis of their beliefs. I’m just holding up a mirror to your bigotry.[/quote]
…you fail to take into account that how the mind works is the same for each and everyone of us. It doesn’t matter what the painting on the canvas depicts, the canvas, paint and brush are the same for all. That means that the contents of your beliefs are different from the next person, but the pathways your brain follows are the same. The reasons for believing your religious beliefs are the same…
[quote]Just because my opinion conflict with your sentiments and beliefs does not mean i’ve not bothered to understand anything.
No, but your warmed-over diatribe indicates, to me at least, that you actually have very little experience with religion. And instead are parroting nonsense.[/quote]
…experience in religion? You’re right actually, i’ve little experience in the continued deception of myself by means of religious indoctrination…
[quote] i know there is no divine subtext to the beliefs people hold so dear.
You KNOW this do you? Where’s your proof? Or, is this a central dogma that you accept upon faith?[/quote]
…since when are you bothered by proof? The unrelenting dissection of the mind. The continued watching of ego will show how the mind works, and how beliefs inflict it’s curse upon the person.
The rush of endorphins to the brain caused by religious vigour is always mistaken for the divine, and by misunderstanding that mechanism ones flawed perception of this mechanism leads one to think there’s something more at work, when it isn’t…
[quote]The religious constructs are there to dull the mind, and to cease the questioning of authority.
The deepest, most profound questioning (of social and political orders & powers) have come from persons immersed in faith.[/quote]
…do you have a recent example of such a person?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
forlife wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Until scientists can account for how everything came out of nothing, however, the supposition that God is behind it all is just as plausible as any other narrative.
Unless, as already pointed out, matter and energy have always existed.
^^ this, of course, is not a fact either.[/quote]
…i rest my case…