Intelligent Design

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
741

[quote]forlife wrote:
What is your justification for believing your particular brand of religion is “trustworthy”? Science makes mistakes, but it is the most reliable method we have for determining objective truth. It is far, far more accurate in that regard than religion will ever be.[/quote]

There isn’t scientific justification, hence I’m agnostic.

Science is however limited and scope. There are certain questions all humans are bound to ask that cannot be tackled by science. Not just about the supernatural, but also with regard to observable phenomenon.

Why are 2 massed bodies attracted to each other? You can label the phenomenon as gravity and assign it values, but you cannot scientifically ask why in regard to the natural occurrences of the universe.

742

[quote]Makavali wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Faith is believing something is trustworthy.

Then why do people believe the Bible?[/quote]

People believe it trustworthy.

743

[quote]Makavali wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Faith is believing something is trustworthy.

Then why do people believe the Bible?[/quote]

People believe in the bible because it offers hope, and when you apply some of its principles to your life it causes a possitive reponse.
People spend time reading the bible and trying to understand it, and then applying its principles to their lives. When doing this increases their happyness and they perceive their life to be better as a result, they believe in the bible.

Many people also experience strong emotional and also physical (increased heart rate, goose bumps etc) feelings when reading the bible.
When you experience these things over the course of your life and have been brought up with the ideas stories and principles of the bible, it is hard to simply discount them.

744

You seem to have a lot of distain for faith, their can be many positive outcomes of having faith, but there is no benefit in beleiving in nothing (not sugesting you believe in nothing).

745

[quote]forlife wrote:
Scrotus wrote:
How do you know that god doesnt just help people at random, on a whim or on the basis of some other standard? It didnt even occur to me that prayer could be used to get stuff from god, so I hadn’t thought of that lol. So, my question is, how do you know god doesn’t help people? If god was all-knowing then he would know who he should help and who he shouldnt, and all that.

The question being studied wasn’t whether god helps people, but whether praying results in better recovery outcomes than expected by chance alone.

You could be right, but if a god doesn’t answer prayers why would anyone bother praying to him/her/it?[/quote]

I dont pray to god, my motto is God helps those who helps themselves. Besides, it seems wussy to me. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in God, I just don’t ask him for things. Besides, if God is all-knowing, then God knows what I want/would pray for, so it’s already taken care of if it’s gonna be.
And you responded to my initial question by showing evuidence that praying doesn’t help, which I had not said anything about, or even thought of to begin with. So that triggered a response/restatement of the question.

During a great flood a poor old church-going woman was stuck on her roof. So, one of her neighbors comes by on his boat and says “Come on, we need to get out of here.” and she says “Dont worry, God will save me” so he leaves. Then a rescue boat comes by and the rescue worker says “Come on ma’am, you need to get in the boat. I’ve got candy, come on, just get in the boat, and I’ll give you candy.” So she says “Dont worry, God will save me, and besides I have lots of butterscotch in my purse.” So finally the rescue helicopter comes and she tells them that god will save her. So a little later she drowns and is talking to god
OCGW “Why didn’t you save me Lord, savior of kittens and poledancers?”
God “What the fuck are you talking about dumbass! I sent two boats, not one but two fucking boats, and when that wasn’t good enough I sent a fucking helicopter, and instead of getting on one of them, you sit on your fucking roof and fucking drown like a fucking retard.”

OCGW “Oh, you sent those”
God “Yeah I fucking sent them, I mean, shit, some fucking people, for My sake, what the fuck is the matter with you? You are fucking lucky I don’t send people to hell for being fucking dipshits, cause you would have a fucking front row fucking seat to being cornholed by the fucking devil, and trust me, he doesn’t fucking mind those fucking old rinkled asses one fucking bit. Now get the fuck out of here, you are fucking inter-fucking-upting my favorite fucking program, The Sopranos!!”
OCGW “Yeah its a good show, but I thought they took it off?”
God “Fucking A you are even fucking dumber than I thought, this is motherfucking Heaven, My Kingdom. If I want more fucking Sopranos, they motherfucking make more fucking Sopranos, and what the fuck are you still fucking doing here? I am The motherfucking Lord and when I say motherfucking beat it, I fucking meant it!! Get the fuck out or I will motherfucking turn your fucking ass to fucking pillar of motherfucking salt! FUCK!!”
And there you have it.

746

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
During a great flood a poor old church-going woman was stuck on her roof. So, one of her neighbors comes by on his boat and says “Come on, we need to get out of here.” and she says “Dont worry, God will save me” so he leaves. Then a rescue boat comes by and the rescue worker says “Come on ma’am, you need to get in the boat. I’ve got candy, come on, just get in the boat, and I’ll give you candy.” So she says “Dont worry, God will save me, and besides I have lots of butterscotch in my purse.” So finally the rescue helicopter comes and she tells them that god will save her. So a little later she drowns and is talking to god
OCGW “Why didn’t you save me Lord, savior of kittens and poledancers?”
God “What the fuck are you talking about dumbass! I sent two boats, not one but two fucking boats, and when that wasn’t good enough I sent a fucking helicopter, and instead of getting on one of them, you sit on your fucking roof and fucking drown like a fucking retard.”
OCGW “Oh, you sent those”
God “Yeah I fucking sent them, I mean, shit, some fucking people, for My sake, what the fuck is the matter with you? You are fucking lucky I don’t send people to hell for being fucking dipshits, cause you would have a fucking front row fucking seat to being cornholed by the fucking devil, and trust me, he doesn’t fucking mind those fucking old rinkled asses one fucking bit. Now get the fuck out of here, you are fucking inter-fucking-upting my favorite fucking program, The Sopranos!!”
OCGW “Yeah its a good show, but I thought they took it off?”
God “Fucking A you are even fucking dumber than I thought, this is motherfucking Heaven, My Kingdom. If I want more fucking Sopranos, they motherfucking make more fucking Sopranos, and what the fuck are you still fucking doing here? I am The motherfucking Lord and when I say motherfucking beat it, I fucking meant it!! Get the fuck out or I will motherfucking turn your fucking ass to fucking pillar of motherfucking salt! FUCK!!”
And there you have it.[/quote]

You’re God is so bad ass. I’d so smoke a joint with him.

747

…so what is Intelligent Design anyway. Is it a theory, hypothesis, idea or opinion?

…does Intelligent Design stand up against the scientific principles that determins the scientific approach?

…if Intelligent Design tries to project a scientific image to bring god into the physics room, shouldn’t it be scrutinized by those same principles?

748

Intelligent design is a way for young earth creationists to exploit the fact that science can’t explain the origins of the universe. I think saying “we don’t know” is a more honest take on it.

749

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…so what is Intelligent Design anyway. Is it a theory, hypothesis, idea or opinion?

…does Intelligent Design stand up against the scientific principles that determins the scientific approach?

…if Intelligent Design tries to project a scientific image to bring god into the physics room, shouldn’t it be scrutinized by those same principles?[/quote]

Intelligent Design would be creationism wrapped up in a week old newspaper. Same shit, different wrapping.

Your last point is especially true. If you want to project a professional scientific image, then you must accept scrutiny. It’s impossible to just say “Oh, but science doesn’t allow for that” because then you’ve already stepped away from science.

And then it’s back to being a collection of conflicting fairy tales,

750

…a few years ago, the subject came up in dutch politics and was quickly dismissed, never to be heard from again. Why is this still an issue for the, supposedly, greatest nation on earth?

751

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a few years ago, the subject came up in dutch politics and was quickly dismissed, never to be heard from again. Why is this still an issue for the, supposedly, greatest nation on earth?[/quote]

Because the minority rules the majority.

752

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
There isn’t scientific justification, hence I’m agnostic.[/quote]

I’m agnostic as well. However, I lean toward the probability that there is no god(s) because there is not much more evidence for it than for invisible flying unicorns. There is pretty good evidence for the possibility of a natural origin of the universe, although we still have a lot to learn. I love thinking about it, and have learned to be a lot more comfortable with ambiguity than when I was a religious fundamentalist.

753

[quote]Doyle wrote:
People believe in the bible because it offers hope, and when you apply some of its principles to your life it causes a possitive reponse.[/quote]

The same benefits can be realized from other religions, and from people that have no religion but share the same core values.

754

[quote]Doyle wrote:
You seem to have a lot of distain for faith, their can be many positive outcomes of having faith, but there is no benefit in beleiving in nothing (not sugesting you believe in nothing).
[/quote]

Believing in Santa Claus brings happiness to my children, but at some point I expect them to grow up and recognize the fairy tale for what it is.

I see religion in the same light. Yes, there are probably some psychological benefits to believing that an omniscient, omnipotent being is out there looking after your best interests. There can also be significant disadvantages when people base their lives on beliefs not grounded in fact. That was certainly the case for me as a gay man fighting my nature due to misguided religious beliefs. It is also true for Muslim terrorists, Christian inquisitors, and many other examples of religion doing more harm than good.

Why not simply adopt the positive values, and see the fairy tales for what they are?

755

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
I dont pray to god, my motto is God helps those who helps themselves. Besides, it seems wussy to me. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in God, I just don’t ask him for things. [/quote]

What value is “god” if he/she/it doesn’t actually do anything for you, and expects people to help themselves? Does that, along with the many conflicting conceptualizations, not suggest that “god” is a figment of our imagination?

Lol, I heard a much tamer version of this story back in my church going days.

756

Most people who accept Darwinian evolution do so on the basis that everyone else does, not that they have been convinced by evidence.

Darwinian evolution is old news, it isn’t science, it is a gesture of an idea before DNA and molecular science existed. Darwinian evolution has never been proven. Just read Darwin’s own doubts in his Origin of the Species, “Difficulties of the Theory”, and you’ll see he expressed such monumental challenges he faced for this theory to work.

Religion is not a crutch for the weak but a truth to the faithful. Some type of God must exist in my perception. To explain the miraculous nature of how light works or why cells divide is supernatural - no science can explain why, only how. Quantum mechanics is supernatural. Somehow energy and matter were created by something sometime. It is only logical to assume that a greater being beyond our understanding has done this, any other belief I think is ignorance and dangerous as you are putting off the inevitable finding out the truth when you die. Believing in the laws of cause and effect in our universe necessitate a cause for our matter and energy, beyond our matter and energy is beyond science and beyond testability, therefore relies on faith.

Look at the facts people. Darwinian evolution is FALSE.

http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/43/1/148.pdf

757

How do you know that matter and energy have not always existed?

758

That of course is the atheistic viewpoint. But again, matter and energy having always existed to me is a cop out and an odd belief. Regardless, the second law of thermodynamics states that heat or energy transfer states that all systems will experience entropy, or eventual heat transfer from the system that cannot be used for work toward self-sustainability of the system.

In other words, matter and energy will tend towards chaos naturally. There has been no account or experiment that I’ve heard of showing that matter and energy have ever disproved this law, where it actually used the energy to produce work towards something, anything, beyond disorder or breakdown into a simpler thing.

Secondly, for the universes order and existence to make any sort of sense, it requires the use of non-existent, non-discovered gravity, “dark matter or energy”, that would must make up about 90% of the universes mass. The big bang has many unanswered questions do to this and the strange phenomena that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, which is counter to the belief in a mass centered universe that originated from a point and will eventually return to that point.

Thirdly, are humans intelligent? Is the human eye intelligent? Are biological systems intelligent? Are the processes and autonomous cells in our body that work like clock work with no apparent reason intelligent? How do enzymes perform a specific function within the body as if they were programmed to do so without a programmer? How is it that man and women evolved as separate beings for their own benefit, yet even though separate biological organisms defy all that “survival of the species” requires? The fact that there are sexes that require each other in order to continue their own race is counter to the idea that they are independently living organisms in a struggle against each other for survival. How could a random process have created male and female genitals that fit rather nicely for each other, I might say, and man sperm exist, then not only have been created as part of the male body for some random reason, but then work perfectly for the females egg.

Calculate the time requires for these things to do their work by chance and you will get astronomical years beyond the age of the universe. Even if the processes were guided by chance, why is it that we can expect and study them and make conclusions about what we witness? Science itself depends upon the dependability of nature, that the laws that guide it and are innate to matters existence don’t spontaneously erupt to follow new physical laws.

A process is not biased and has no self awareness, it will execute as long as it has the resources needed to execute, and if it doesn’t it will halt. It is illogical to me to say that a process such as evolution has a will to succeed, or a will to develop things to sustain itself. The argument of the evolutionist is that chaos created order.

I’m not saying I know everything or science will never reveal things such as what dark matter really is such that we have a better understanding of what our existence IS today, but regardless of what we know about our universe, I don’t see any continuity or logic behind a random process creating the near perfection of biological organisms and living things.

759

How did chaos produce mathematical beauty that exists in almost everything in the universe?

I’m just saying the universe is intelligent, biological organisms contain intelligence that cannot logically and consistently be explained by a non-intelligent source.

760

You forgot about the first law of thermodynamics, which states that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed. Logically then, matter/energy have always existed.

The same could be true of universal laws, which by definition impose order on the universe.

Theists never answer the ultimate question: What created your god(s)? They defer to the “mystery” of god without being willing to defer to the “mystery” of the universe. How about being honest and admitting that we simply don’t know?