[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What have I claimed exists in the physical universe that you are challenging?[/quote]
You believe an intelligent, beneficent, superbeing actually exists rather than just being an idea.
You believe this superbeing created the universe.
You believe this superbeing performs physical miracles.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Prayer itself, NO!
So you are acknowledging that praying for the sick is useless, since it has zero effect on their likelihood of recovery?[/quote]
What? Prayer is for the soul far, far, far, (I can’t stress the “far” enough) more than it is for the material body. Do we pray for an intercession? Sure, you can. But, I don’t expect them to happen often enough to even register on some study. Again, why is this discussion narrowed to some tv evangelist healing hour idea christian belief?
Christianity is a faith concerning the otherworldly. We don’t send our children through seminaries to become surgeons, in order to heal the physical body. Of course, your background is mormonism, correct? I have no idea what they teach over in those parts.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You logic and studies would be laughed at by any reasonably educated scientist.[/quote]
Lol, then explain how the studies were published in peer-reviewed, respected scientific journals.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And yes, if you think it was more than a chemical reaction, it was spiritual.[/quote]
Fair enough, I had the most spiritual experience last night. Heavenly, in fact. Salvation is oh so sweet 
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Christianity is a faith concerning the otherworldly. We don’t send our children through seminaries to become surgeons, in order to heal the physical body. Of course, your background is mormonism, correct? I have no idea what they teach over in those parts.[/quote]
In other words, your god has zero effect on anything having to do with the physical world. That’s fine if you really believe that, but I’m talking about the vast majority of religious people who claim their god actually has an effect on this world. Any such effect is subject to scientific scrutiny, to see if it is a fairy tale or fact.
Mormons absolutely believe that god intervenes on their behalf in the physical world. In that regard, they are like most other religions.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Christianity is a faith concerning the otherworldly. We don’t send our children through seminaries to become surgeons, in order to heal the physical body. Of course, your background is mormonism, correct? I have no idea what they teach over in those parts.
In other words, your god has zero effect on anything having to do with the physical world. That’s fine if you really believe that, but I’m talking about the vast majority of religious people who claim their god actually has an effect on this world. Any such effect is subject to scientific scrutiny, to see if it is a fairy tale or fact.
Mormons absolutely believe that god intervenes on their behalf in the physical world. In that regard, they are like most other religions.[/quote]
No, I believe God can have an effect on the material world. I believe in an omnipotent God, after all. Yet, his intercessions would be extremely, extremely rare.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
No, I believe God can have an effect on the material world. I believe in an omnipotent God, after all. Yet, his intercessions would be extremely, extremely rare.
[/quote]
Again, that’s fine but is not what the vast majority of religious people believe. People are constantly praying to their god to help them with material problems, despite these prayers going unanswered. Of course, a certain number of positive outcomes is expected by chance alone, but unless this occurs with greater frequency than expected by chance, the prayer is demonstrably useless. Instead, what happens is people take these positive outcomes as proof that their god really did hear and answer their prayer.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, I believe God can have an effect on the material world. I believe in an omnipotent God, after all. Yet, his intercessions would be extremely, extremely rare.
Again, that’s fine but is not what the vast majority of religious people believe. People are constantly praying to their god to help them with material problems, despite these prayers going unanswered. Of course, a certain number of positive outcomes is expected by chance alone, but unless this occurs with greater frequency than expected by chance, the prayer is demonstrably useless. Instead, what happens is people take these positive outcomes as proof that their god really did hear and answer their prayer.[/quote]
Near, to completely useless, for getting rich or removing a spleen. The point of prayer is spirtitual. That’s not attractive to you either, I know, since you don’t believe you have an eternal soul. But there it is.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
If you understand beyond elementary physics you understand elementary physics is wrong more than right. And that time and space are imaginary concepts non-existent in the true universe.
If you actually believe that, why not be honest about the infinite existence of the “true universe”?[/quote]
Because infinite existence doesn’t make sense if time is relative.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Prayer itself, NO!
So you are acknowledging that praying for the sick is useless, since it has zero effect on their likelihood of recovery?[/quote]
I never said that at all. I never said it had zero effect. I said your study is stupid because it doesn’t account for dozens of variables. But I don’t know how you are making the claim that christianity holds that if you say magic words you get better.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
What have I claimed exists in the physical universe that you are challenging?
You believe an intelligent, beneficent, superbeing actually exists rather than just being an idea.
[/quote]
Not in or of this universe
Yes, but not through any specific methods. The scientific method of creation is not contradicted by this belief.
[quote]
You believe this superbeing performs physical miracles.[/quote]
Yes, but not necessarily that they cannot be scientifically explained.
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
How is is that you arrived that the universe is infinite in time and space? How did it get that way?
How about the possibility that it has always been that way? Is that any more of a stretch than making up a superbeing that has always been that way?
You’re trying to impose a start date on the universe, to create a straw man argument that something can’t be created from nothing.
However, if you applied the same standard to your own creation theory, you are left with the same straw man.
Something can’t be created from nothing, so the logical conclusion is that something has always existed.[/quote]
Apparently you do not know what “strawman” means. So don’t use it incorrectly. I have not put any kind of distraction from the point actual point. And if you read the post and understood the actual words spoken, then you would realize that I already address the possibility of the ever existing universe.
It is certainly possible, but not necessarily plausible that the universe is infinite in time and space, however, that does not trump the argument from the point of contingency.
Besides, I am not the one who has an issue with existence out side of time. That burden lies on determinists, who are atheists, as each preceding the event is critical to what happens next in a temporal sense.
Theists can accept events outside the realm of time in the affect of simultaneous causation. Atheists require that each cause precedes it’s effect. It’s this rigidity that weakens the atheist’s argument. However, to debunk the cosmological argument is very easy, all you have to do is find one thing physical or metaphysical, that lies outside the causal chain and the whole thing will crumble.
Can you think of anything that sits outside the causal chain? If you can find even one tiny thing, you can prove there is no God.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Because infinite existence doesn’t make sense if time is relative.[/quote]
What are you talking about? You just said that you believe the “true universe” isn’t bound by space and time, so how is that anything but an admission that the universe is infinite?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I never said that at all. I never said it had zero effect. I said your study is stupid because it doesn’t account for dozens of variables. But I don’t know how you are making the claim that christianity holds that if you say magic words you get better.[/quote]
You are waffling all over the place.
Fine, you are now saying that prayer has an effect on recovery from illness.
Given that, it is a very straightforward study design to measure the effects of prayer on recovery rates.
Either you don’t understand science, or you didn’t read the article that I posted. The experimental design does in fact control for extraneous variables, such that any observed effect can ONLY be due to the results of prayer.
Of course, there was no effect so you cry foul.
And for the last time, I’m not just talking about your brand of christianity, or even christianity in general. I’m talking about ANY religion that makes a claim about the physical universe, and most do.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Because infinite existence doesn’t make sense if time is relative.
What are you talking about? You just said that you believe the “true universe” isn’t bound by space and time, so how is that anything but an admission that the universe is infinite?[/quote]
Not what I said at all. I’m saying space and time aren’t real. To say that the universe is infinite in space and time is to quantify something with false measurements. For existence to have always been, time has to be real.
In other words I’m saying a minute isn’t a real unit of measure, and you are inferring that means the universe is infinite minutes old.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Yes, but not necessarily that they cannot be scientifically explained.[/quote]
It’s not a matter of being able to explain a “miracle” scientifically or not.
It is a question of whether “miraculaous events” occur at a rate greater than expected by chance alone.
THAT is subject to science, and has in fact been studied. Along with claims about ESP, telekinesis, etc. so far the science has shown it all to be bunk.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
I never said that at all. I never said it had zero effect. I said your study is stupid because it doesn’t account for dozens of variables. But I don’t know how you are making the claim that christianity holds that if you say magic words you get better.
You are waffling all over the place.
Fine, you are now saying that prayer has an effect on recovery from illness.
Given that, it is a very straightforward study design to measure the effects of prayer on recovery rates.
Either you don’t understand science, or you didn’t read the article that I posted. The experimental design does in fact control for extraneous variables, such that any observed effect can ONLY be due to the results of prayer.
Of course, there was no effect so you cry foul.
And for the last time, I’m not just talking about your brand of christianity, or even christianity in general. I’m talking about ANY religion that makes a claim about the physical universe, and most do.[/quote]
No, none of the variables I mentioned were controlled. and tons of assumptions were made about god. Was the control group given a placebo for prayer? Did the other people not get helped by god?
I laugh at this study the same way I laugh when religious groups do “studies” to prove god real.
What claims about the physical universe? You still haven’t pointed one out.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Yes, but not necessarily that they cannot be scientifically explained.
It’s not a matter of being able to explain a “miracle” scientifically or not.
It is a question of whether “miraculaous events” occur at a rate greater than expected by chance alone.
THAT is subject to science, and has in fact been studied. Along with claims about ESP, telekinesis, etc. so far the science has shown it all to be bunk.[/quote]
You are going to quantify and predict the the miraculous events of the universe? What prey tell are the odds on existence vs. non-existence? You cannot quantify those types of things.
[quote]pat wrote:
It is certainly possible, but not necessarily plausible that the universe is infinite in time and space, however, that does not trump the argument from the point of contingency. [/quote]
I’m glad you admit that the universe may in fact be infinite. Given that, your argument that god must exist because the universe is finite doesn’t hold any weight.
Run that by me again? What does atheism have to do with denying timelessness? It is science that proposed matter and energy are eternal, it is science that proposed the possibility of infinite universes, and it is science that stepped outside of time via the theory of relativity.
Double-Slit experiment, proving true randomness rather than causality in the slit through which the electron passes. Hence by your own logic, there is no god.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Not what I said at all. I’m saying space and time aren’t real. To say that the universe is infinite in space and time is to quantify something with false measurements. For existence to have always been, time has to be real.
In other words I’m saying a minute isn’t a real unit of measure, and you are inferring that means the universe is infinite minutes old.[/quote]
If space and time aren’t real, how can the universe have had a beginning as you claimed earlier?