[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
I don’t think religion should be used to impart the scientific knowledge of things like how the world started, and on the same token, science can?t be used to disprove god.
If you don’t think religion should be used to impart the scientific knowledge of things like how the world started, why are you claiming that your god created the world?
What I’m pointing out is the hypocrisy of forelife’s claims. That he can use science application to discredit religion and god while claiming his spiritual beliefs about existence, love, laws of nature, ect. are excused from questioning.
Who the hell said anything about spiritual beliefs? Is the color blue or the enjoyment I feel from hearing Mahler’s 5th spiritual because it doesn’t consist of matter/energy?[/quote]
Because I’m not making a scientific claim about how the world started. I’m talking about an unverifiable belief about why it happened, not how.
And yes, if you think your enjoyment is more that the presence of certain chemicals in your brain and that it is scientifically unexplainable, it is absolutely spiritual.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
The studies equate amount of god in a situation to amount of prayer. Go even learn what DOE is and get back to me. You have so many uncontrolled variables in your “study” it’s absurd. Quit trying to prove things with science you don’t even understand.[/quote]
It’s a very simple question:
Does prayer result in a greater amount of healing than expected by chance alone or not?
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Infinite, eternal existence makes no more sense than something coming from nothing. Neither can currently be comprehended. You are replacing “straw man” with “chicken and egg”.
Infinite existence of matter and energy makes perfect sense, if you know even the rudimentary basics of physics.
What doesn’t make sense is the idea of a magical superbeing that lives completely outside of time and space, and has always existed.
[/quote]
If you understand beyond elementary physics you understand elementary physics is wrong more than right. And that time and space are imaginary concepts non-existent in the true universe.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
The studies equate amount of god in a situation to amount of prayer. Go even learn what DOE is and get back to me. You have so many uncontrolled variables in your “study” it’s absurd. Quit trying to prove things with science you don’t even understand.
It’s a very simple question:
Does prayer result in a greater amount of healing than expected by chance alone or not?
I don’t know. Do Catholic hospitals just have prayer groups instead of doctors? Why is it that this discussion treats Christianity as if the snake handler variety was the common representation of the faith? Say huh, what?
You are saying having people mouth words each day is equivalent to giving them X amount of a known drug in a study. It isn’t! Not even close.
Do those people believe and have faith in what they are praying? do the others not have faith? Is no one in the world praying for the people that don’t pray themselves? Is healing in the praying peoples ultimate best interest? Does god hear and answer every prayer? does he do what is best for every person? Does he refuse to help those who don’t pray? Does god operate within human logical bounds? the list goes on and on and on.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Then come up with a scientifically credible study.[/quote]
See the reference provided earlier on the effect of prayer on healing outcomes, which controlled for any variance outside of the hypothetical influence of prayer itself.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
I think it’s more logical that every system has a beginning personally.
However, your logic breaks down when you talk about your god. You claim that your god never had a beginning, and are being inconsistent in your logic.[/quote]
No, if something is on a higher plan, you can’t use the rules and logic of this world to analyze it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Then come up with a scientifically credible study.
See the reference provided earlier on the effect of prayer on healing outcomes, which controlled for any variance outside of the hypothetical influence of prayer itself.[/quote]
You logic and studies would be laughed at by any reasonably educated scientist.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Because I’m not making a scientific claim about how the world started. I’m talking about an unverifiable belief about why it happened, not how.[/quote]
Do you not understand that a claim about the origin of the universe is essentially a scientific claim? Theories of the origin of the universe have been scientifically evaluated, and many have been rejected based on objective evidence. The moment you stop talking about values and start making claims about the physical universe, you are tresspassing in the realm of science.
[quote]
And yes, if you think your enjoyment is more that the presence of certain chemicals in your brain and that it is scientifically unexplainable, it is absolutely spiritual.[/quote]
So the personal meaning and enjoyment I experienced last night from having sex with my partner was absolutely spiritual? Maybe there is a place in your heaven for gays after all.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you understand beyond elementary physics you understand elementary physics is wrong more than right. And that time and space are imaginary concepts non-existent in the true universe.[/quote]
If you actually believe that, why not be honest about the infinite existence of the “true universe”?
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Because I’m not making a scientific claim about how the world started. I’m talking about an unverifiable belief about why it happened, not how.
Do you not understand that a claim about the origin of the universe is essentially a scientific claim? Theories of the origin of the universe have been scientifically evaluated, and many have been rejected based on objective evidence. The moment you stop talking about values and start making claims about the physical universe, you are tresspassing in the realm of science.
And yes, if you think your enjoyment is more that the presence of certain chemicals in your brain and that it is scientifically unexplainable, it is absolutely spiritual.
So the personal meaning and enjoyment I experienced last night from having sex with my partner was absolutely spiritual? Maybe there is a place in your heaven for gays after all.[/quote]
No, saying god is responsible, and saying it happened this way are different things.
And yes, if you think it was more than a chemical reaction, it was spiritual.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You are saying having people mouth words each day is equivalent to giving them X amount of a known drug in a study. It isn’t! Not even close.
Do those people believe and have faith in what they are praying? do the others not have faith? Is no one in the world praying for the people that don’t pray themselves? Is healing in the praying peoples ultimate best interest? Does god hear and answer every prayer? does he do what is best for every person? Does he refuse to help those who don’t pray? Does god operate within human logical bounds? the list goes on and on and on.[/quote]
These people weren’t mouthing words, they were believers in “god” who prayed in faith for the recovery of the heart patients.
And again, you can say whatever you want about the intent of your god to help people or not but the essential question is very simple:
Does prayer result in a higher recovery rate than occurs by chance alone?