My PF strength/stiffness seems to be really bad… actually, the problem is maintaining it… I did stiff leg ADA drops from a fairly low height for warmups, now, even two days later, it seems I’ve still not recovered from those; my achilles tendons are stiff, there’s hardly any spring in my step…
How should I tackle this? More DUR work? If yes, then what exercises? I’ve learned the principle to some extent but I’m still having a hard time putting them into practical use.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
JT,
I started thinking, as I was looking at the template example you gave…
Simplified, RATE work is done to improve the rate at which power is produced, and DUR is done to improve the length of time that power is produced, have I understood correctly?
In your example, you wrote 150m sprints for a RATE day, but wouldnt those be more DUR work than rate? I don’t know, I’m confused, that’s why I’m asking.[/quote]
Think about the length of contractions involved. Sprinting ground contact are under half a second, while a squat might be 3 or 4 seconds.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
JT,
Still trying to understand the system, is the example you provided kind of like a accumulation/intensification type thing, where you first have higher volume for a couple of weeks, then lower the volume and increase the intensity (or weight)?
I’ve found from my experiences that, as opposed to the 4 week cycles usually recommended, I have to use 3 week cycles (2 weeks on, 3rd week back off) in order to avoid overreaching.[/quote]
It could be, I think that is probably my favorite way to structure things.
Definitly go for what you know works. If you like 3 week cycles, go for that.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
My PF strength/stiffness seems to be really bad… actually, the problem is maintaining it… I did stiff leg ADA drops from a fairly low height for warmups, now, even two days later, it seems I’ve still not recovered from those; my achilles tendons are stiff, there’s hardly any spring in my step…
How should I tackle this? More DUR work? If yes, then what exercises? I’ve learned the principle to some extent but I’m still having a hard time putting them into practical use.[/quote]
One exercise that I’ve seen recommended are barbell walks. Basically put a barbell on your back and walk, with every step coming up on your toes. Also, plain old calf raises, especially with a pause at the top, would help. Try doing a little bit each workout as a warmup and cooldown.
The way I think about it is like this: most people have to build up some squat strength before doing depth jumps, so most people probably need to build up some base calf strength before doing reactive PF work.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Think about the length of contractions involved. Sprinting ground contact are under half a second, while a squat might be 3 or 4 seconds.
[/quote]
Ok, that makes sense. Still, what’s the rationale for doing 150m sprints? I’m assuming this being a general prep phase has something to do with it? I think I also remember reading something on the site about establishing a good speed endurance base…
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
One exercise that I’ve seen recommended are barbell walks. Basically put a barbell on your back and walk, with every step coming up on your toes. Also, plain old calf raises, especially with a pause at the top, would help. Try doing a little bit each workout as a warmup and cooldown.
The way I think about it is like this: most people have to build up some squat strength before doing depth jumps, so most people probably need to build up some base calf strength before doing reactive PF work.
[/quote]
Sounds reasonable. I’ll add some to my workouts, hopefully I can cure the problem that way.
Thanks for the help.
150 was an arbitrary number I threw out there. I figured 150m would take something like 20 seconds to run, which would place it right at the top of the lower bound for An-2 work.
Basically yeah, I think the rationale is get a good base of speed and strength endurance, then hammer out some max strength, then starting doing the MAG work and have your reactive proficiency go through the roof. Repeat as often as neccessary.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
150 was an arbitrary number I threw out there. I figured 150m would take something like 20 seconds to run, which would place it right at the top of the lower bound for An-2 work.
Basically yeah, I think the rationale is get a good base of speed and strength endurance, then hammer out some max strength, then starting doing the MAG work and have your reactive proficiency go through the roof. Repeat as often as neccessary.[/quote]
Alright then, I’m starting to understand what this is about. It is kind of opposite to some current trends though, the fact that one should first focus on speed and strength endurance, and on max strength after that, whereas a lot of people are in defense of getting max strength numbers up first and foremost…
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
My PF strength/stiffness seems to be really bad… actually, the problem is maintaining it… I did stiff leg ADA drops from a fairly low height for warmups, now, even two days later, it seems I’ve still not recovered from those; my achilles tendons are stiff, there’s hardly any spring in my step…
How should I tackle this? More DUR work? If yes, then what exercises? I’ve learned the principle to some extent but I’m still having a hard time putting them into practical use.[/quote]
I would begin with isometric holds to help increase “stiffness”. Start with isometric holds in a fully contracted position of the calf raise and in a stretch position. I would do both positions with knees straight and bent. That way you will work all of the plantarflexors.
You began with the advanced exercises instead of building up a base. That is why the GPP template is first recommended. It allows you to prepare your body for the more advanced training (increased intensity, etc.) that will follow. It is the only time you combine RATE and DUR work in the same week. (Rate work is speed, Mag is power, DUR is strength in simple terms.)
I think you are overanalyzing the “system” at this point. Do not get excited by some of the unique/different exercises that are presented. Keep things simple and easy. You will know when you are ready for the more advanced exercises. Pick 3-4 exercises that are DUR/strength exercises and perform up and down reps, ISOs, concentric only or Eccentric only. Pick 3-4 exercises that Rate/speed exercises. For these, it will be better if you are on the track. The exercises could consist of line jumps, mini trampoline sprints, sprints, etc. If you decide to use weight for these exercises, use a weight that is 10-30% appropriated weight of your 1RM. If you go much heavier than that when you are starting out, you will be in the MAG realm.
Hopefully, this will help you and not confuse you more.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
150 was an arbitrary number I threw out there. I figured 150m would take something like 20 seconds to run, which would place it right at the top of the lower bound for An-2 work.
Basically yeah, I think the rationale is get a good base of speed and strength endurance, then hammer out some max strength, then starting doing the MAG work and have your reactive proficiency go through the roof. Repeat as often as neccessary.
Alright then, I’m starting to understand what this is about. It is kind of opposite to some current trends though, the fact that one should first focus on speed and strength endurance, and on max strength after that, whereas a lot of people are in defense of getting max strength numbers up first and foremost…[/quote]
Remember the GPP allows you to assess the athlete or yourself and determine weaknesses. Then you will know what to focus on with your next cycle. Also remember that strength work (a.k.a DUR) is the foundation for MAG and RATE. Powerlifters are super strong, but most are not very fast because they do not train RATE/stiffness. Your RATE dominant people will bounce down the track, but they will not be very fast because they lack the strength/DUR to help propel them.
Not too different from the max strength crowd.
Think to yourself, how would you train a 16 year old kid who weighs 100lbs.
I’m sure they (Max strength crowd)wouldnt take a 100lb beginner and place them on a max effort squat cycle the first day, they’d probably bring them in and have them work on bodyweight squats, pull ups, push ups, dips etc… Then theyd probably progress to doing squats and benches, etc… with a light load and doing countless reps to master form with a load and add some muscle. That whole progression is strength endurance based.
Then you also might have them work on some conditioning (get ft to train dont train to get fit) so they may run intervals, do davies style GPP circuits, medicine ball stuff, etc… That is all speed endurance.
Then when their body was ready theyd throw in the heavy max effort work.
And if you think about it that’s probably what you would do too (see you already knew this, that’s what climbon meant when he said over analyze) .
Remember tht GPP is the base.
I’ve seen it recommended on Charlie Francis’s site (and MAYBE even by CF himself, although I don’t want to put words in his mouth, so I’m not going to directly attribute this to him), that the “short to long” approach of working from:
strength → accel → speed → speed endurance
Is not preferential for beginners. In relation to the world class sprinters he’s training, a beginner is probably anybody above a 12.5 in the 100. In that case, I believe it was recommended that a “long to short” approach be applied, building up a base of speed and strength endurance before working on the more taxing elements.
Another benefit of this is that RATE An-2 and DUR An-2 are by far the easiest elements to work in the Inno-Sport system. It’s kind of tough to do drop-offs for max strength or MAG work. RATE is easy, just time yourself in a sprint or see how many hops you can get in 30 seconds, etc. DUR An-2 is easy to drop off, either by reps or load. In that, it’s good for anybody who’s trying to learn the system to start with.
You might want to pick up that DVD. It’s specifically geared at people trying to learn the system with an applicatin towards speed.
[quote]climbon wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
My PF strength/stiffness seems to be really bad… actually, the problem is maintaining it… I did stiff leg ADA drops from a fairly low height for warmups, now, even two days later, it seems I’ve still not recovered from those; my achilles tendons are stiff, there’s hardly any spring in my step…
How should I tackle this? More DUR work? If yes, then what exercises? I’ve learned the principle to some extent but I’m still having a hard time putting them into practical use.
I would begin with isometric holds to help increase “stiffness”. Start with isometric holds in a fully contracted position of the calf raise and in a stretch position. I would do both positions with knees straight and bent. That way you will work all of the plantarflexors.
You began with the advanced exercises instead of building up a base. That is why the GPP template is first recommended. It allows you to prepare your body for the more advanced training (increased intensity, etc.) that will follow. It is the only time you combine RATE and DUR work in the same week. (Rate work is speed, Mag is power, DUR is strength in simple terms.)
I think you are overanalyzing the “system” at this point. Do not get excited by some of the unique/different exercises that are presented. Keep things simple and easy. You will know when you are ready for the more advanced exercises. Pick 3-4 exercises that are DUR/strength exercises and perform up and down reps, ISOs, concentric only or Eccentric only. Pick 3-4 exercises that Rate/speed exercises. For these, it will be better if you are on the track. The exercises could consist of line jumps, mini trampoline sprints, sprints, etc. If you decide to use weight for these exercises, use a weight that is 10-30% appropriated weight of your 1RM. If you go much heavier than that when you are starting out, you will be in the MAG realm.
Hopefully, this will help you and not confuse you more.[/quote]
Yeah, I also read about those calf raise holds, will incorporate them in my workouts. I did the barbell walks on friday for warmups…
Hey, thanks for clearing the terms up, I was under the impression that DUR work was more speed endurance/strength endurance oriented.
As a sidenote, would uphill sprints fit in somewhere?
Without a doubt your reply helped me more than confused me. Thanks.
[quote]squattin600 wrote:
Alright then, I’m starting to understand what this is about. It is kind of opposite to some current trends though, the fact that one should first focus on speed and strength endurance, and on max strength after that, whereas a lot of people are in defense of getting max strength numbers up first and foremost…
Not too different from the max strength crowd.
Think to yourself, how would you train a 16 year old kid who weighs 100lbs.
I’m sure they (Max strength crowd)wouldnt take a 100lb beginner and place them on a max effort squat cycle the first day, they’d probably bring them in and have them work on bodyweight squats, pull ups, push ups, dips etc… Then theyd probably progress to doing squats and benches, etc… with a light load and doing countless reps to master form with a load and add some muscle. That whole progression is strength endurance based.
Then you also might have them work on some conditioning (get ft to train dont train to get fit) so they may run intervals, do davies style GPP circuits, medicine ball stuff, etc… That is all speed endurance.
Then when their body was ready theyd throw in the heavy max effort work.
And if you think about it that’s probably what you would do too (see you already knew this, that’s what climbon meant when he said over analyze) .
Remember tht GPP is the base.[/quote]
Thanks for putting that into perspective. I didn’t think of it that way at first.
I guess I just got a little caught up in the mix because a lot of trainers just tell everybody to get flat out stronger, without talking too much about e.g. reactivity.
I took this to heart, too literally, and lost some reactivity. I feel like I used to be a lot more reactive back in the day and, partly due to injuries, have lost that.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I’ve seen it recommended on Charlie Francis’s site (and MAYBE even by CF himself, although I don’t want to put words in his mouth, so I’m not going to directly attribute this to him), that the “short to long” approach of working from:
strength → accel → speed → speed endurance
Is not preferential for beginners. In relation to the world class sprinters he’s training, a beginner is probably anybody above a 12.5 in the 100. In that case, I believe it was recommended that a “long to short” approach be applied, building up a base of speed and strength endurance before working on the more taxing elements.
Another benefit of this is that RATE An-2 and DUR An-2 are by far the easiest elements to work in the Inno-Sport system. It’s kind of tough to do drop-offs for max strength or MAG work. RATE is easy, just time yourself in a sprint or see how many hops you can get in 30 seconds, etc. DUR An-2 is easy to drop off, either by reps or load. In that, it’s good for anybody who’s trying to learn the system to start with.
You might want to pick up that DVD. It’s specifically geared at people trying to learn the system with an applicatin towards speed.[/quote]
Good take home points here. I think I’ll have to stay in the general prep phase for one more cycle, to learn more.
I’m thinking about getting that DVD, I PM’d Dan Fichter to get more info, but didn’t get a reply. I should probably go through the Inno site.
I realized that me saying “back in the day” in the post above is kind of silly, since I’m 21 now, and ‘back in the day’ would mean being 17 years old… but I digress…
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
I’ve seen it recommended on Charlie Francis’s site (and MAYBE even by CF himself, although I don’t want to put words in his mouth, so I’m not going to directly attribute this to him), that the “short to long” approach of working from:
strength → accel → speed → speed endurance
Is not preferential for beginners. In relation to the world class sprinters he’s training, a beginner is probably anybody above a 12.5 in the 100. In that case, I believe it was recommended that a “long to short” approach be applied, building up a base of speed and strength endurance before working on the more taxing elements.
Another benefit of this is that RATE An-2 and DUR An-2 are by far the easiest elements to work in the Inno-Sport system. It’s kind of tough to do drop-offs for max strength or MAG work. RATE is easy, just time yourself in a sprint or see how many hops you can get in 30 seconds, etc. DUR An-2 is easy to drop off, either by reps or load. In that, it’s good for anybody who’s trying to learn the system to start with.
You might want to pick up that DVD. It’s specifically geared at people trying to learn the system with an applicatin towards speed.
Good take home points here. I think I’ll have to stay in the general prep phase for one more cycle, to learn more.
I’m thinking about getting that DVD, I PM’d Dan Fichter to get more info, but didn’t get a reply. I should probably go through the Inno site.[/quote]
Go ahead and buy the DVD. It is made for beginners and will give some background information on the “system.” It provides a sample program for increasing speed as well. I think it will help clear things up for you.
[quote]climbon wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
I’ve seen it recommended on Charlie Francis’s site (and MAYBE even by CF himself, although I don’t want to put words in his mouth, so I’m not going to directly attribute this to him), that the “short to long” approach of working from:
strength → accel → speed → speed endurance
Is not preferential for beginners. In relation to the world class sprinters he’s training, a beginner is probably anybody above a 12.5 in the 100. In that case, I believe it was recommended that a “long to short” approach be applied, building up a base of speed and strength endurance before working on the more taxing elements.
Another benefit of this is that RATE An-2 and DUR An-2 are by far the easiest elements to work in the Inno-Sport system. It’s kind of tough to do drop-offs for max strength or MAG work. RATE is easy, just time yourself in a sprint or see how many hops you can get in 30 seconds, etc. DUR An-2 is easy to drop off, either by reps or load. In that, it’s good for anybody who’s trying to learn the system to start with.
You might want to pick up that DVD. It’s specifically geared at people trying to learn the system with an applicatin towards speed.
Good take home points here. I think I’ll have to stay in the general prep phase for one more cycle, to learn more.
I’m thinking about getting that DVD, I PM’d Dan Fichter to get more info, but didn’t get a reply. I should probably go through the Inno site.
Go ahead and buy the DVD. It is made for beginners and will give some background information on the “system.” It provides a sample program for increasing speed as well. I think it will help clear things up for you.[/quote]
Probably will. I’m also starting to understand more as I read the articles on the site. I’ve got a few left from DB that I haven’t read, then I’m done. I’ll also have the check out the DB msg board.
Back again.
I’m thinking about doing workouts consisting of ISO’s and OI’s. This is because generally I lack strength, and I haven’t done anything but up and down (PIM) reps in any lift in a long, long while.
What do you think?
This would address my need for absolute strength, would bring a new type of training stimulus, and prepare me for future implements of Neuro-Dynamics work.
This is all still in the general preparatory stage.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
Back again.
I’m thinking about doing workouts consisting of ISO’s and OI’s. This is because generally I lack strength, and I haven’t done anything but up and down (PIM) reps in any lift in a long, long while.
What do you think?
This would address my need for absolute strength, would bring a new type of training stimulus, and prepare me for future implements of Neuro-Dynamics work.
This is all still in the general preparatory stage.[/quote]
ISO’s are a great choice. If you have the book, he talks about ISO’s at different joint angles and their different uses. I had success with OI’s as well, just note that the first couple of times you do them you will have to really drop the weight substantially in order to get the movements down.
For DUR An-2, I think PIM, ISO and OI work well, for An-1 I like PIM, PLIO and MIO.