If America Should Go Communist

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
421

[quote]ssn0 wrote:
Should America go communist as a result of the difficulties and problems that your capitalist social order is unable to solve, it will discover that communism, far from being an intolerable bureaucratic tyranny and individual regimentation, will be the means of greater individual liberty and shared abundance.

At present most Americans regard communism solely in the light of the experience of the Soviet Union. They fear lest Sovietism in America would produce the same material result as it has brought for the culturally backward peoples of the Soviet Union.

They fear lest communism should try to fit them to a bed of Procrustes, and they point to the bulwark of Anglo-Saxon conservatism as an insuperable obstacle even to possibly desirable reforms. They argue that Great Britain and Japan would undertake military intervention against the American soviets. They shudder lest Americans be regimented in their habits of dress and diet, be compelled to subsist on famine rations, be forced to read stereotyped official propaganda in the newspapers, be coerced to serve as rubber stamps for decisions arrived at without their active participation or be required to keep their thoughts to themselves and loudly praise their soviet leaders in public, through fear of imprisonment and exile.

They fear monetary inflation, bureaucratic tyranny and intolerable red tape in obtaining the necessities of life. They fear soulless standardization in the arts and sciences, as well as in the daily necessities of life. They fear that all political spontaneity and the presumed freedom of the press will be destroyed by the dictatorship of a monstrous bureaucracy. And they shudder at the thought of being forced into an uncomprehended glibness in Marxist dialectic and disciplined social philosophies. They fear, in a word, that Soviet America will become the counterpart of what they have been told Soviet Russia looks like.

Leon Trotsky
August 17, 1934

http://www.newyouth.com/archives/classics/trotsky/if_america_should_go_communist.html[/quote]

You know, I woke up this morning and thought, “I hope I find some nob sounding off on the “merits” of communism today!” So thanks. But I think the rebellious teens have switched to blabbing about anarchism over their Starbucks Venti Caramel Frappucinos.

Anyway, maybe you do have an elevated social conscience. If so, consider volunteer work. If you can get down to the Gulf Coast, things are still in disarray from Hurricane Katrina (oh yeah, that.) Estimates suggest that if 50 houses can be repaired daily (impossible) then the damage should be offset in [u]10 years.

[/u] Even if repairs could be made that quickly, interest in repairing the damage sure wouldn’t last at that rate for a full decade. Habitat for Humanities is closing down the Ninth Ward’s branch of “Common Ground” and the flow of volunteers continues to decline. Much of FEMA’s relief funds went to repairing Mississippi’s coastline, so Louisiana is still in trouble (from what I’ve seen.) They certainly appreciate all the help they can get.

I recommend Camp Coast Care, myself, the food is good and the work is incredibly rewarding and interesting. The people you meet are fantastic, as well. So if you want to make the world a better place, that is one of many ways you can do it.

However, if you’re too lazy to actually take a proactive role in achieving the social justice you bitch about on the internet, then shut your FUCKING mouth. Communism has demonstrated itself to be a flop and a shitty idea from day 1. You should be ashamed of this post, tool. But that’s for a different post, I’ve said my bit.

Nice avatar.

422

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

The societies you describe are socialdemocracies. The mix between socialism and kapitalism, the synthesis between the hypothesis and antithesis… Further on, the countries trying the hardest to become more socialiced (norway for instance…) Would never have survived without for instance: the oil. Third: the backbone of european economy at the moment is the european union, which in reality is a free trade organisation with a few social structures to help other countries end up at the same basically market driven economy.

“and a government that so heavily regulates every detail of doing business that the black market continuously outgrows the regular one.”

Right, could you point me to which country this is…? [/quote]

Every European one. I know it for sure in Austria, Germany and Italy and I would be surprised if it were not also true for France.

The only links I could give would be in German.

Social Democracy is a political movement that was founded to achieve socialism through democratic means.

As I said it makes no difference if you lose your freedom all at once ,or inch by inch.

Hence “Road to tyranny” and not “Cliff to despotism”.

The end result is the same.

With people like you I mean people that grew up in a system and are so indoctrinated by its basic assumptions and “weasel words” like social economy, social jutice and solidarity that they cannot see that they have less freedoms than under monarchies 150 year ago.

Finally there is no synthesis of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism works, socialism doesn`t.

The debts, or to be more precise future rights to receive a pension, of Germanies social security system are 3-4 (!!!) times that of the national debt.

This socialist part of the economy will break down like East Germany, and the part of the economy still in touch with reality will carry on.

And again:

I do not know what part of your income you have left after the state has robbed you, but if you seriously think that anyone has the right to more of your earnings than yourself, brainwashed you are.

423

[quote]orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

The societies you describe are socialdemocracies. The mix between socialism and kapitalism, the synthesis between the hypothesis and antithesis… Further on, the countries trying the hardest to become more socialiced (norway for instance…) Would never have survived without for instance: the oil. Third: the backbone of european economy at the moment is the european union, which in reality is a free trade organisation with a few social structures to help other countries end up at the same basically market driven economy.

“and a government that so heavily regulates every detail of doing business that the black market continuously outgrows the regular one.”

Right, could you point me to which country this is…?

Every European one. I know it for sure in Austria, Germany and Italy and I would be surprised if it were not also true for France.

The only links I could give would be in German.

Social Democracy is a political movement that was founded to achieve socialism through democratic means.

As I said it makes no difference if you lose your freedom all at once ,or inch by inch.

Hence “Road to tyranny” and not “Cliff to despotism”.

The end result is the same.

With people like you I mean people that grew up in a system and are so indoctrinated by its basic assumptions and “weasel words” like social economy, social jutice and solidarity that they cannot see that they have less freedoms than under monarchies 150 year ago.

Finally there is no synthesis of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism works, socialism doesn`t.

The debts, or to be more precise future rights to receive a pension, of Germanies social security system are 3-4 (!!!) times that of the national debt.

This socialist part of the economy will break down like East Germany, and the part of the economy still in touch with reality will carry on.

And again:

I do not know what part of your income you have left after the state has robbed you, but if you seriously think that anyone has the right to more of your earnings than yourself, brainwashed you are.
[/quote]

“but if you seriously think that anyone has the right to more of your earnings than yourself, brainwashed you are.”

So, in which country do we have a tax percentage of more than 50%…? And well, where are the german links that show that black markets are bigger than ordinary markets…?

424

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

“but if you seriously think that anyone has the right to more of your earnings than yourself, brainwashed you are.”

So, in which country do we have a tax percentage of more than 50%…? And well, where are the german links that show that black markets are bigger than ordinary markets…?[/quote]

This is an international comparison of the black market between 1970-1997 by Prof. Schneider of the Kepler University, our number one guy when it comes to the black market, tax evasion and such.

It is in pdf format.

The basic conclusion is that in the oecd countries the black market has doubled if not tripled its “market share”, in a still growing economy!

So while in oecd countries the black market is not the majority of the market (yet) it grows at a much larger rate than the official economy which is what I have stated.

We have taxes of over 50% in probably all European countries if you do not count Liechtenstein, Monaco and Andorra.

If you combine your direct taxes, your indirect taxes, your social security taxes and the taxes your employer is required to pay for you and compare that with what you get to keep it should be significantly less than 50%.

The fact that our governments put on a smoke and mirror show, calling social security taxes an insurance and counting employer contributions to those “insurances” not as part of your income though they are, is part of what I consider to be brainwashing.

Fact is, no employer can afford to pay you more than you produce. Compare the total costs of your employment and what is left in your pocket after the mafi…, um, government has shook you down and weep.

A German example:

Real brutto, including employers share:

3962 Euro

Brutto, as seen on the montly check ypu get:

3116 Euro

Netto, meanmg after direct taxes and social “insurance”:

1948 Euro

Real netto, minus VAT and other indirect taxes:

1363 Euro

1363/3962*100=34,4%, which is roughly one third.

edit: fixed link

425

[quote]orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

“but if you seriously think that anyone has the right to more of your earnings than yourself, brainwashed you are.”

So, in which country do we have a tax percentage of more than 50%…? And well, where are the german links that show that black markets are bigger than ordinary markets…?

http://www.T-Nation.com/postMessagePrep.do?quoteId=1553015&topicId=1403410&messageType=reply

This is an international comparison of the black market between 1970-1997 by Prof. Schneider of the Kepler University, our number one guy when it comes to the black market, tax evasion and such.

It is in pdf format.

The basic conclusion is that in the oecd countries the black market has doubled if not tripled its “market share”, in a still growing economy!

So while in oecd countries the black market is not the majority of the market (yet) it grows at a much larger rate than the official economy which is what I have stated.

We have taxes of over 50% in probably all European countries if you do not count Liechtenstein, Monaco and Andorra.

If you combine your direct taxes, your indirect taxes, your social security taxes and the taxes your employer is required to pay for you and compare that with what you get to keep it should be significantly less than 50%.

The fact that our governments put on a smoke and mirror show, calling social security taxes an insurance and counting employer contributions to those “insurances” not as part of your income though they are, is part of what I consider to be brainwashing.

Fact is, no employer can afford to pay you more than you produce. Compare the total costs of your employment and what is left in your pocket after the mafi…, um, government has shook you down and weep.

A German example:

Real brutto, including employers share:

3962 Euro

Brutto, as seen on the montly check ypu get:

3116 Euro

Netto, meanmg after direct taxes and social “insurance”:

1948 Euro

Real netto, minus VAT and other indirect taxes:

1363 Euro

1363/3962*100=34,4%, which is roughly one third.

[/quote]

The thing is, I agree absolutely that the tax level in most europen countries is far more than it has to be, mostly beacause you have a velfaresystem based on “want” not “need” and beacause you have more state employees than producing citizens. But that still doesen’t make it a communist society, in any way.

426

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

The thing is, I agree absolutely that the tax level in most europen countries is far more than it has to be, mostly beacause you have a velfaresystem based on “want” not “need” and beacause you have more state employees than producing citizens. But that still doesen’t make it a communist society, in any way.[/quote]

Since communism is just international sowjet socialism, as opposed to national socialism or the democratic socialism most European nations have, I do not know how you can clearly draw a line.

If 100% state property is perfect socialism and 100% pivate property is perfect or at least anarcho- capitalism where is 2/3 for the state, 1/3 for you?

Is this still close to a free society?

To make things more complicated, the GER had an estimated shadow economy of around 40%, so even so called communist societies needed markets.

Maybe you see the difference in the style of government as if there was no such concept as “tyranny of te majority”.

If you speak some German:

Freiheit hei?t Selbstbestimmung, nicht Mitbestimmung.

I wush I knew how to translate that into English.

427

[quote]orion wrote:If you speak some German:

Freiheit hei?t Selbstbestimmung, nicht Mitbestimmung.

I wush I knew how to translate that into English.
[/quote]

“Freedom is about self-determination, not co-determination.”

428

[quote]orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

The thing is, I agree absolutely that the tax level in most europen countries is far more than it has to be, mostly beacause you have a velfaresystem based on “want” not “need” and beacause you have more state employees than producing citizens. But that still doesen’t make it a communist society, in any way.

Since communism is just international sowjet socialism, as opposed to national socialism or the democratic socialism most European nations have, I do not know how you can clearly draw a line.

If 100% state property is perfect socialism and 100% pivate property is perfect or at least anarcho- capitalism where is 2/3 for the state, 1/3 for you?

Is this still close to a free society?

To make things more complicated, the GER had an estimated shadow economy of around 40%, so even so called communist societies needed markets.

Maybe you see the difference in the style of government as if there was no such concept as “tyranny of te majority”.

If you speak some German:

Freiheit hei?t Selbstbestimmung, nicht Mitbestimmung.

I wush I knew how to translate that into English.
[/quote]

Well germany, with the problems from eastern germany still stemming, IS a bad example. The most “socialist” countries in Europe, Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc, are still a far way from being communist, and thank god for that. Ofcourse one should work towards a lower degree of governmental control, but that will take time.