[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
[/quote]
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
Marx’s Hegelian roots should have actually have prevented him from believing in Communism. Thesis vs Antithesis => Synthesis. LF Capitalism vs Totalitarianism => Mixed Economy.
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
[/quote]
everyone does decide for themselves.
i would imagine that what is usefull for you would also be usefull for others even if it is useless to me. its hard for me to think of a situation where each individual in a society would require products unique to him or her.
i think we also have to distinguish between what is essential and useful and what is a luxury.
maybe you can give me an example of what you are refering to
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
everyone does decide for themselves.
i would imagine that what is usefull for you would also be usefull for others even if it is useless to me. its hard for me to think of a situation where each individual in a society would require products unique to him or her.
i think we also have to distinguish between what is essential and useful and what is a luxury.
maybe you can give me an example of what you are refering to[/quote]
I want my super-dooper-ultra-schmex with green polka dots and a darling mellow saphron ribbon.
It will, absolutely, revolutionize psycho therapy, modern police tactics and the prewvention of unwanted pregnancies.
What can I say, I am a genius and know better than anyone else.
Will the masses let me have what I want?
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
everyone does decide for themselves.
i would imagine that what is usefull for you would also be usefull for others even if it is useless to me. its hard for me to think of a situation where each individual in a society would require products unique to him or her.
i think we also have to distinguish between what is essential and useful and what is a luxury.
maybe you can give me an example of what you are refering to
I want my super-dooper-ultra-schmex with green polka dots and a darling mellow saphron ribbon.
It will, absolutely, revolutionize psycho therapy, modern police tactics and the prewvention of unwanted pregnancies.
What can I say, I am a genius and know better than anyone else.
Will the masses let me have what I want? [/quote]
why wouldnt they let you have it. i think as long as there is a demand there will be a supply the important thing would be that the means of production would not be privately owned.
i dont see why workers control of the production would eliminate the demand of the product.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
everyone does decide for themselves.
i would imagine that what is usefull for you would also be usefull for others even if it is useless to me. its hard for me to think of a situation where each individual in a society would require products unique to him or her.
i think we also have to distinguish between what is essential and useful and what is a luxury.
maybe you can give me an example of what you are refering to
I want my super-dooper-ultra-schmex with green polka dots and a darling mellow saphron ribbon.
It will, absolutely, revolutionize psycho therapy, modern police tactics and the prewvention of unwanted pregnancies.
What can I say, I am a genius and know better than anyone else.
Will the masses let me have what I want?
why wouldnt they let you have it. i think as long as there is a demand there will be a supply the important thing would be that the means of production would not be privately owned.
i dont see why workers control of the production would eliminate the demand of the product.[/quote]
Because people have no idea what they want. They did not know they wanted the automobile, electric light, penicillin, computers and aeroplanes…
They would not have spent one dime om their developement and rightly so, because most outrageous ideas are BS.
However, if someone privately develops it, using his own money, such things get built.
All a poor genius had to do in capitalism was to find an entrepreneur to develop and market his idea in socialism he needs to convince the unwashed masses…
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
everyone does decide for themselves.
i would imagine that what is usefull for you would also be usefull for others even if it is useless to me. its hard for me to think of a situation where each individual in a society would require products unique to him or her.
i think we also have to distinguish between what is essential and useful and what is a luxury.
maybe you can give me an example of what you are refering to
I want my super-dooper-ultra-schmex with green polka dots and a darling mellow saphron ribbon.
It will, absolutely, revolutionize psycho therapy, modern police tactics and the prewvention of unwanted pregnancies.
What can I say, I am a genius and know better than anyone else.
Will the masses let me have what I want?
why wouldnt they let you have it. i think as long as there is a demand there will be a supply the important thing would be that the means of production would not be privately owned.
i dont see why workers control of the production would eliminate the demand of the product.
Because people have no idea what they want. They did not know they wanted the automobile, electric light, penicillin, computers and aeroplanes…
They would not have spent one dime om their developement and rightly so, because most outrageous ideas are BS.
However, if someone privately develops it, using his own money, such things get built.
All a poor genius had to do in capitalism was to find an entrepreneur to develop and market his idea in socialism he needs to convince the unwashed masses…
[/quote]
I’d sell soap!
[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
the masses decide what they want, no one single person or single institution has power over the masses. the masses, based on their demands, decide what is essential and what is useless.
Why not let everyone decide for himsself?
What my be useless to you might be useful to me and vice-versa?
everyone does decide for themselves.
i would imagine that what is usefull for you would also be usefull for others even if it is useless to me. its hard for me to think of a situation where each individual in a society would require products unique to him or her.
i think we also have to distinguish between what is essential and useful and what is a luxury.
maybe you can give me an example of what you are refering to
I want my super-dooper-ultra-schmex with green polka dots and a darling mellow saphron ribbon.
It will, absolutely, revolutionize psycho therapy, modern police tactics and the prewvention of unwanted pregnancies.
What can I say, I am a genius and know better than anyone else.
Will the masses let me have what I want?
why wouldnt they let you have it. i think as long as there is a demand there will be a supply the important thing would be that the means of production would not be privately owned.
i dont see why workers control of the production would eliminate the demand of the product.
Because people have no idea what they want. They did not know they wanted the automobile, electric light, penicillin, computers and aeroplanes…
They would not have spent one dime om their developement and rightly so, because most outrageous ideas are BS.
However, if someone privately develops it, using his own money, such things get built.
All a poor genius had to do in capitalism was to find an entrepreneur to develop and market his idea in socialism he needs to convince the unwashed masses…
I’d sell soap![/quote]
But how would you produce it if the mere suggestion insults your lord and master, ze very dirty masses?
Maybe burning you at a stake seems to be a better investment for ze unwash-ed one than investing into a product that mighht lead, if properly used, to, shudder, a bath every 14 days?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
[/quote]
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
[quote]mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
[/quote]
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?[/quote]
Everywhere except England and a few eastern European states.
Ah, Beowolf hits in on the head. People DO suck, and those in power will always cull the best for themselves. That’s why capitalism works better than communism; in a capitalist society, those in power still appropriate what they want, but the proletariate can rise via their own devices and be one of the appropriators. That’s what communism lacks.
america is closer to a communist nation than a republic already.
the socialistic initiatives that have expanded greaty since being introduced during the great depression saw to that.
I agree, TexasGuy. Freedom is lost an inch at a time, and we have slipped closer and closer to a socialist form of government ever since Woodrow Wilson’s administration (earlier, if you count the debacle of the Lincoln administration). That’s what a large central government does - it always moves to expand it’s power and protect itself.
[quote]mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
[/quote]
I have been to 4 out of the 7 continents. Europe has been my main stomping ground actually. I love to travel. Having kids pretty much put a stop to my globe trotting, but I have seen many places. I am even bilingual if you can believe that. I am assuming you have a reason for asking?
[quote]orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?
Everywhere except England and a few eastern European states.
[/quote]
I thought the Austrians hung a bunch of commies and skinned them alive publicly in Wien during the early days of the Second Republic?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?
Everywhere except England and a few eastern European states.
I thought the Austrians hung a bunch of commies and skinned them alive publicly in Wien during the early days of the Second Republic?
[/quote]
Na, the legend is that Franz Olah took the construction work teamsters and prevented an attempted coup by the Sowjet occupiers.
They were very hands on I believe, but skinning did not take place.
Since no side wanted us to be on the other side, probably mainly for geostrategic reasons (passes and tunnels through the alps) we ended up as a neutral country.
[quote]orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?
Everywhere except England and a few eastern European states.
[/quote]
Hahahahahahahaha
You have to tell me what drug you’re on!
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?
Everywhere except England and a few eastern European states.
Hahahahahahahaha
You have to tell me what drug you’re on!
[/quote]
It makes no difference if you nationalize all industry and have it run by the state and give the people just enough to live or if you just let them work in a private system and socialize their earnings.
In Austria and Germany an average workr gets to keep one third of what he is producing the rest is taken away and re-distributed by the state.
If you only get to keep enough money to feed,clothe and shelter yourself and the rest goes to your master, you are at best a beast of burden for the society.
We have a state quota of nearly 50%, socialized education, healtcare, unemployment-, injury- and pension- insurances and a government that so heavily regulates every detail of doing business that the black market continuously outgrows the regular one.
The problem of people like you is that they do not know different, but around 1900 th state quota was typically around 10%.
So, what drugs am I on?
And a book recommendation: Hajek, “The road to tyranny”
[quote]orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
orion wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
mcquaidla wrote:
pat36 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
Have you ever been out of the country, say, to Europe?
Where in europe did socialism/communism succeed?
Everywhere except England and a few eastern European states.
Hahahahahahahaha
You have to tell me what drug you’re on!
It makes no difference if you nationalize all industry and have it run by the state and give the people just enough to live or if you just let them work in a private system and socialize their earnings.
In Austria and Germany an average workr gets to keep one third of what he is producing the rest is taken away and re-distributed by the state.
If you only get to keep enough money to feed,clothe and shelter yourself and the rest goes to your master, you are at best a beast of burden for the society.
We have a state quota of nearly 50%, socialized education, healtcare, unemployment-, injury- and pension- insurances and a government that so heavily regulates every detail of doing business that the black market continuously outgrows the regular one.
The problem of people like you is that they do not know different, but around 1900 th state quota was typically around 10%.
So, what drugs am I on?
And a book recommendation: Hajek, “The road to tyranny”
[/quote]
“the problem of people like you”
yes, like you know anything ABOUT me.
The societies you describe are socialdemocracies. The mix between socialism and kapitalism, the synthesis between the hypothesis and antithesis… Further on, the countries trying the hardest to become more socialiced (norway for instance…) Would never have survived without for instance: the oil. Third: the backbone of european economy at the moment is the european union, which in reality is a free trade organisation with a few social structures to help other countries end up at the same basically market driven economy.
“and a government that so heavily regulates every detail of doing business that the black market continuously outgrows the regular one.”
Right, could you point me to which country this is…?