From Merriam-Webster:
Agnostic:
a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable.[/quote]
If the agnostic wants to have any voice in the debate of God’s existence (or the rationality of believing he exists), he MUST say something of importance; otherwise, why listen?
To say God is currently unknown and probably unknowable isn’t saying an awful lot. Why don’t these so called agnostics knuckle up and make the statement they essentially must make, that he is unknowable.
Eitherway, no matter how you size it up, whether or not God exists is certainly a knowable matter as it is a matter of fact (“God” [whatever one means by that term] either does or does not exist).
[quote]
The key word there is “probably”.
“Probably unknowable” is, for our purposes here, vastly different from “Cannot be known.”[/quote]
“Probably unknowable” is vastly different than “cannot be known” under any circumstances, not just for our purposes. The former is a measure of degree the latter instills necessity.
If you reason for believe lies in “the written record of proof,” where does this leave your faith? You seem to have supplanted faith with reason; so which are you – a man of faith or a man of reason? I don’t beleive “both” is an option here.
If this isn’t the pot calling the kettle black, I don’t know what is. Not one person insulted anyone’s point of view until YOU and one other atheist jumped into the forum to degrade those with religious beliefs. You can dish it but can’t take it. [/quote]
Let me try this one more time, so listen carefully: WHEN DID I INSULT YOUR POINT OF VIEW? Is there some defective blocking feature in place on this forum, designed to preclude atheists from daring to voice there opinions? Or is any sort of legitimate question or debate point considered blasphemous by you anointed few? Contrarily, you accuse atheists of being without conscience or morals…not surprising, since such attacks on “non-believers” is so typical of theists, regardless of whatever stripe they wear (Google “Taliban”, for example).
Believe what you want, live like you want, but don’t blame us who point out in legitimate debate that your underlying beliefs rest upon a bed of sand.
BTW…and this is to any of the theists out there…I’ve heard claims again and again in this forum about eyewitnesses to the Resurrection. Could someone please name one? (oh, yeah…and hearsay evidence doesn’t count.) Where in the New Testament does an eyewitness to any of Jesus’ miracles give a first-person account of the event? (here’s a hint: there isn’t one…)
This thread seems to have switched focus from atheism v. theism to a name calling game of who is more arrogant than the other and who qualifies as an elitist. Let’s just conclude we’re all a bit arrogant and all “elitist” in the sense that we think we’re right.
Agree to disagree and move along.
Oh, and rainjack, by calling out elitist in every post you are looking an awful lot like ZEB screaming “child!” in ever post…remember that? Knock it off and make points that matter.
[stepping off the referreeing soapbox]
Question for all BELIEVERS: what of the problem of evil? How do you respond to it?
How could an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god allow, for example, the tsunami’s to occur killing (eventually) hundreds of thousands?
My claim is that the Problem of Evil – an argument based in reason – stabs the Judeo-Christian God in the heart, forcing his believers to give up claiming one of the following three attributes: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good. He cannot be all three at the same time, given the evil that exists in the world.
It is true that you can find many similarities between the beliefs of different religions. Some of these similarities can be seen in the beliefs of past civilizations. Rather than seeing this as basis for the idea that modern religions such as Christianity are unoriginal, i prefer to see these common elements as consisteny, and i feel that such consistency shows that there must be something to it.
[quote]Boscobarbell wrote:
WHEN DID I INSULT YOUR POINT OF VIEW? Is there some defective blocking feature in place on this forum, designed to preclude atheists from daring to voice there opinions? [/quote]
Gee, where did I go out of my way to insult your way of thinking? When asked, I give my point of view. My only response about being lame as far as comebacks wasn’t even towards you and was to specific things that had been typed by someone else. Unless you plan on going back and answering the questions I specifically asked you instead of dancing around them, quit acting like you are a victim.
Question for all BELIEVERS: what of the problem of evil? How do you respond to it?
How could an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god allow, for example, the tsunami’s to occur killing (eventually) hundreds of thousands?
My claim is that the Problem of Evil – an argument based in reason – stabs the Judeo-Christian God in the heart, forcing his believers to give up claiming one of the following three attributes: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good. He cannot be all three at the same time, given the evil that exists in the world.[/quote]
Our reality is based on life and death, joy and pain. For every action, there is a reaction. For God, there is the opposite in evil. For only good things to happen, we would have to be devoid of the reality we plunged ourselves into at the beginning of time with the transgressions of Adam and Eve. To understand God, you would also have to understand Satan. This concept of Yin and Yang is the foundation of our plane of existance. The real question is, are you truly asking this to become more aware or so that you can be prepared to degrade what you receive?
Question for all BELIEVERS: what of the problem of evil? How do you respond to it?
How could an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient god allow, for example, the tsunami’s to occur killing (eventually) hundreds of thousands?
My claim is that the Problem of Evil – an argument based in reason – stabs the Judeo-Christian God in the heart, forcing his believers to give up claiming one of the following three attributes: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good. He cannot be all three at the same time, given the evil that exists in the world.[/quote]
Our reality is based on life and death, joy and pain. For every action, there is a reaction. For God, there is the opposite in evil. For only good things to happen, we would have to be devoid of the reality we plunged ourselves into at the beginning of time with the transgressions of Adam and Eve. To understand God, you would also have to understand Satan. This concept of Yin and Yang is the foundation of our plane of existance. The real question is, are you truly asking this to become more aware or so that you can be prepared to degrade what you receive?
[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
Oh, and rainjack, by calling out elitist in every post you are looking an awful lot like ZEB screaming “child!” in ever post…remember that? Knock it off and make points that matter.
[/quote]
I made my points, thank you very much.
Whtether or not the other side wants to acknowledge them is out of my hands.
It seems to me that the athiests are trying really hard to marginalize the theists with absurd examples, all the while pushing the idea that we are abnormal compared to them. That we are not as enlightened.
But you don’t see that, do you? You just notice the fact that I’m throwing the bullshit flag on them. If they walk like a duck and quack like a duck, then…well…don’t blame me for calling them ducks.
A claim can’t be non-existent once it has been made.
At the core of this thread is a debate about faith. It is obvious that Prof.X and several others including myself have a great deal of faith, and that it is the foundation of our system of values. Such is the case with many people,regardless of the Diety the worship.
One of the variables that people keep singling out is how it has been practiced.No one can or should be held accountable for how another person acts.I am sure alot of muslims would get behind that.
The one constant has been an outright assault, countered by a defence of the validity of Christianity.I think this is a misplacement of emphasis and a waste of energy.Those with faith are going to be hardened by this approach, and those without are going to get frustrated by the “closeminded”.
I was actualy raised agnostic.After about 27 years of failed self sufficiency,I started looking outside of my self for some answers to questions that no-one seemed to be able to answer.These questions remained until I became receptive to the answer.This was the start of a spiritual awakening.
Now I realy don’t care if someone worships a green, bong hitting,westside lifting bunny, a tree, or the old standard Jesus. As long as they believe in something outside of themselves, that is a source of inspiration and moral guidance.This shows me that they are receptive to spiritual principals, and are spiritualy seeking. This to me is the essence of the human condition.The dual nature of our existance.The other half of the equation that is life.A human body that contains the human spirit.
The only reason I bring this up is because I feel that people who don’t embrace the sriritual aspect of their existance are missing out on at least half of their life.
If you don’t care about that yourself,Neither do I. I certainly don’t try saving people from themselves. On my path, I don’t light the way, I just cary the torch. If someone wants to follow,they are welcome.
If they don’t like my path, they can find their own. But one thing I guarantee from experience is that if you are self centered, your path will be a circle that just keeps getting smaller.
The question of evil is realy simple.We have Free Will. It is explained real well in Genesis.We can choose to love God as he loves Us, or we can turn away.If by turning away,one embraces a life that includes hurting others, you have made a concious decision to become Evil. Apparently alot of people make that choice every day.
[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
My claim is that the Problem of Evil – an argument based in reason – stabs the Judeo-Christian God in the heart, forcing his believers to give up claiming one of the following three attributes: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good. He cannot be all three at the same time, given the evil that exists in the world.[/quote]
God gave us the gift of choice. Free Will. He gave that gift to everyone - not just those that believe in him. Our experiences in life are based on our choices. To blame God for evil is to blame the wrong guy - especially since evil is a product of our choices.
I don’t think I have the idea of God that you want me to have in order for your claims to hold true. Oh, he’s omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, but he doesn’t use those just to make us happy, comfy kids.
Gee, where did I go out of my way to insult your way of thinking? When asked, I give my point of view. My only response about being lame as far as comebacks wasn’t even towards you and was to specific things that had been typed by someone else. Unless you plan on going back and answering the questions I specifically asked you instead of dancing around them, quit acting like you are a victim.[/quote]
Prof, you’re f’ing with me, right? Because no one can possibly be that obtuse and thick-headed. You specifically stated that atheists were lacking in any “foundation of values.” As an atheist, I take that as a direct insult. What about that don’t you get, or do you now wish to retract your condescending and smug attitude about non-believers?
And I DID answer each and every one of your questions…you just didn’t like the answers, or at least didn’t believe them to properly parallel the manner in which your god purportedly acts. I believe Lothario answered them as well…another post you conveniently ignored.
Oh, and by the way…I’m many things, but not a victim. Just because I call you out on the shit you’re throwing around doesn’t make me a victim…it just makes me pissed off.
Now I realy don’t care if someone worships a green, bong hitting,westside lifting bunny, a tree, or the old standard Jesus. As long as they believe in something outside of themselves, that is a source of inspiration and moral guidance." [/quote]
I and most atheists do hold a belief in something outside ourselves…the vast, complex, and wonderful Universe, the sum of all of our empirical knowledge and experience. What could be more wonderful than that?
God gave us the gift of choice. Free Will. He gave that gift to everyone - not just those that believe in him. Our experiences in life are based on our choices. To blame God for evil is to blame the wrong guy - especially since evil is a product of our choices.
I don’t think I have the idea of God that you want me to have in order for your claims to hold true. Oh, he’s omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, but he doesn’t use those just to make us happy, comfy kids. [/quote]
I believe this sidesteps the Question of Evil. For if God created all that we know and see, then he is responsible for at least putting into place the components which, when activated, will result in acts of evil (and, being omniscient, he presumably did so knowingly). So why would the all-good God create an environment conducive to the existence of evil?
And why couldn’t we all be “happy, comfy kids?” It’s what I strive for in my own family…why wouldn’t a loving God do the same for us all?
It seems to me that the athiests are trying really hard to marginalize the theists with absurd examples, all the while pushing the idea that we are abnormal compared to them. That we are not as enlightened.
[/quote]
Man, this get better and better, doesn’t it? What could be more “absurd” than the virgin-born carpenter’s son who claims to be the Son of God, makes fish multiply, heals the sick, allows mortal man to kill him and then rises from the dead? Do you not get it that, to an atheist, this tale is about as wacky and unbelievable as it gets (my Pink Bunnyrabbit is downright normal, by comparison!).
And, just for edification’s sake, how about showing me where you were called “abnormal,” or that you were not as “enlightened.” In re-reading these posts, the only thing I can see is that atheists disagree with your belief and raised questions about it. You claimed in a previous post how rock-solid your faith is, but you and others (Prof X) seem awful precious about absorbing conflicting views.
[quote]Boscobarbell wrote:
Prof, you’re f’ing with me, right? Because no one can possibly be that obtuse and thick-headed. You specifically stated that atheists were lacking in any “foundation of values.” [/quote]
I specifically wrote that to another poster based on what he was writing. It involved his partaking of a religious act but claiming no religious background or desire. You need to learn how to read in context. If anyone is thin skinned around here, it is you. Next time, learn when you are being spoken to and when you are not.
[quote]Boscobarbell wrote:
And, just for edification’s sake, how about showing me where you were called “abnormal,” or that you were not as “enlightened.” In re-reading these posts, the only thing I can see is that atheists disagree with your belief and raised questions about it. You claimed in a previous post how rock-solid your faith is, but you and others (Prof X) seem awful precious about absorbing conflicting views.
[/quote]
Then you didn’t re-read the whole thread - just the parts that supports your current charge.
There is a reason that this discussion/debate has been waged for centuries - there is no way for either side to win. “Fools say in their heart, there is no God”. We’re to be pitied. You are fools.
If you disagree with my beliefs - fine. I’ve said that all along. I disagree with yours.
You can’t prove to me that there is no God. I know, I know the burden of proof lies with the theists, yada, yada, yada. That’s just a semantical point to keep you guys from having to do anything to prove your position. If you could prove, conclusively, that there was no God - you would. But you can’t. You’ve proved it enough to convince youself, but that’s about it. So you try to substantiate your position by making the theist position look absurd. That may work when your’re preaching to the choir, but not with me, or any of the others on the theist side.
I can’t prove to you that there is a God. No one can prove one exists - you believe it, or you don’t.
I agree with RSU - this has been reduced to a name calling contest.
Our reality is based on life and death, joy and pain. For every action, there is a reaction. For God, there is the opposite in evil. For only good things to happen, we would have to be devoid of the reality we plunged ourselves into at the beginning of time with the transgressions of Adam and Eve. To understand God, you would also have to understand Satan. This concept of Yin and Yang is the foundation of our plane of existance. The real question is, are you truly asking this to become more aware or so that you can be prepared to degrade what you receive?[/quote]
So what you’re trying to say is that evil exists in the world outside of God. For example, as god is the power of pure good, satan is the power of pure evil. Is this right?
If so, than you are rejecting God’s omnipotence. You are declaring he is not all-powerful, as you have said Satan can create things that God cannot control. Since God has no bearing on that which Satan can (sometimes?) accomplish, he isn’t ALL POWERFUL. Isn’t this so?
{by the way, I don’t have to “degrade what I receive” – whoever devised “the problem of evil” has covered that – there IS NO valid response to it, which is what makes it such a great argument.}