[quote]OBoile wrote:
There are lots of guys there who might weigh 190-200 and bench 250-300 and they regularly get asked for training advice meanwhile the girl who weighs 115 and can bench 135 is ignored despite the fact that this is a far greater accomplishment.
[/quote]
Thank you for this perspective.
Both Ouroboro and I are involved in the competitive PLing community. We live thousands of miles away. And yet the only woman I’ve ever seen bench 225 raw is the exact same woman O cited: Jennifer Thompson. It is statistically a very rare endeavor. [/quote]
OBoile, his wife, BB and I train together from time to time. We’re all part of the small Canadian PL pond and looking at the same people. We aren’t pulling out random internet stats. We’re talking, for the most part, about people we know.
I was going to go through the IPF open world results because there are some truly humbling numbers in there. I just haven’t had a chance yet.[/quote]
I looked at the bench only results for the most recent world’s. I’d guess about 1/2 of the women in the 63 kg or lower weight classes could do 225. It’s only a guess since the results are with bench shirts.
Of course this is the world championships for bench press specialists, so the field is pretty much elite by default.
[quote]Hallowed wrote:
I wonder how many of the women that post on T-Nation bench 225.
[/quote]
Raw, my only guess would be LilPower. I’m not sure about Black Widow who posts on a log. She’s strong but I’m not sure what her bench is.[/quote]
To add to this. Cbear did 225 off of a 2 or 3 board within the last week or so. That’s not offically a 225 raw bench, but still relevant. Gbench (who was like a 132) was also closing in on 225 at one point, she may or may not have hit it, I’m not sure.
I can think of 6 other women that I know or have come across in competition that bench 225+. They all compete in untested feds and with the exception of 2, all are in the 181+ weight classes. I can think of at least 3 others that probably have, judging what they’ve done shirted and how they’ve performed on other bench variations.
BUT just because I know of 9 or more that have attained that strength level, I STILL wouldn’t claim that a 225 bench is not rare for women.
And those strength standards on Bret Contreras site are total bullshit. Most of them are way too vague (squat 135-225x10 for elite? seriously?! that is a 90 pound window). It doesn’t take BW into account other than assuming that the women are “normal” and that there are ranges for each exercise. And finally, the low end for elite is really fucking low. I think the Ex-Rx site has a much more reasonable set up for strength standards.
[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ We have already established that this argument is so yesterday.
Today we have on the menu
Men and low Tlevels
Tired of Pussy in the gym
Please proceed to either thread and commence todays:
Two man enter one man leave. This is TNationdome. [/quote]
I watched that movie (Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome) for the first time last night.[/quote]
I think it is a requirement if you are going to do PL there are certain movies you must watch? this being one of them. Please PM me if you want the full list.
And those strength standards on Bret Contreras site are total bullshit. Most of them are way too vague (squat 135-225x10 for elite? seriously?! that is a 90 pound window). It doesn’t take BW into account other than assuming that the women are “normal” and that there are ranges for each exercise. And finally, the low end for elite is really fucking low. [/quote]
Even I, a relatively weak PLer, must agree that the Contreras standards are ridiculously low. Although they are good for my ego.
And those strength standards on Bret Contreras site are total bullshit. Most of them are way too vague (squat 135-225x10 for elite? seriously?! that is a 90 pound window). It doesn’t take BW into account other than assuming that the women are “normal” and that there are ranges for each exercise. And finally, the low end for elite is really fucking low. [/quote]
Even I, a relatively weak PLer, must agree that the Contreras standards are ridiculously low. Although they are good for my ego.
Take BW into account? Ahheemmm.[/quote]
You guuuuys! I was feeling like a supah stah. Don’t shit in my Cap’n Crunch.
And those strength standards on Bret Contreras site are total bullshit. Most of them are way too vague (squat 135-225x10 for elite? seriously?! that is a 90 pound window). It doesn’t take BW into account other than assuming that the women are “normal” and that there are ranges for each exercise. And finally, the low end for elite is really fucking low. [/quote]
Even I, a relatively weak PLer, must agree that the Contreras standards are ridiculously low. Although they are good for my ego.
Take BW into account? Ahheemmm.[/quote]
I would assume that bodyweight is why there is a range.
I too think they’re a bit low. However the people calling them low are all PL’ers. He trains “regular” people. I think our perception is probably a bit off. At least in my case, the women around me aren’t doing things like using the same weights for tricep kickbacks that they use for dumbbell bench.
Yeah those strength standards are weak. I think they’re low on all the sources here. I mean seriously we’re talking elite. There is no way someone my age training for a couple of years could ever be considered elite, especially when my max snatch is just over half the top ranked female lifter in my province. Now SHE is elite.
And those strength standards on Bret Contreras site are total bullshit. Most of them are way too vague (squat 135-225x10 for elite? seriously?! that is a 90 pound window). It doesn’t take BW into account other than assuming that the women are “normal” and that there are ranges for each exercise. And finally, the low end for elite is really fucking low. [/quote]
Even I, a relatively weak PLer, must agree that the Contreras standards are ridiculously low. Although they are good for my ego.
Take BW into account? Ahheemmm.[/quote]
I would assume that bodyweight is why there is a range.
I too think they’re a bit low. However the people calling them low are all PL’ers. He trains “regular” people. I think our perception is probably a bit off. At least in my case, the women around me aren’t doing things like using the same weights for tricep kickbacks that they use for dumbbell bench.[/quote]
If the chart is supposed to be strength standards for “regular people” its silly to be throwing around words like 'advanced" and “elite”, no? Of course, I’m not saying that my definition of strong (or muscular) is even close to what the average person’s definition might be.
I realize that he said that these standards are based off of the regular women he trains, but I take issue with that too. Why should female lifters and strength athletes be judged by different standards? We’re all female. We have the same (generally speaking) ability to get strong. Its just a matter of pushing and training to get there. The training goals may be different, but how we judge strength should be the same regardless of what sport a person is (or is not) competing in.
I’ma pull some numbers out of my ass that aren’t necessarily based off of his table for an example here…A 132lb female PLer squatting 225 is no different from a 132lb housewife squatting 225.
The PLer may only rank 30 for her weight class and have 2 other women out squat her in comp. The housewife is the strongest woman in her commercial gym. You can’t base an elite strength standards off of the strongest housewife at the commercial gym and ignore the fact that there are dozens of women as strong or stronger than her just because they compete in a strength sports. What are the strength athlete then? Super Elite?
Checking the apf totals for powerlifters, this is geared non tested , elite at 198 for women is 1149. Shw, which is 198+ is 1260. Men’s 123 is 1210. 132 is 1300. All factors being relatively equal we are drawing that an elite man will lift at the bottom if elite what a woman weighing what a woman weighing about 60% more will weigh.
As for 132, he needs to lift more than the suoerheavyweight female lifter. These totals ate skewed a little low IMO because of the improvement in gear from the mid to late .80s. Elite is easier now. Back in that time maybe the top ten male lifters in the country could be classified as elite . Myself was just hitting class one back then . With new gear I would have been close to elite or would make it. Carryover was much worse .
But raw is still raw. I don’t have any problem with gear but for comparisons to general weight trainers athletes and such we should talk about raw.
While Brett’s numbers might seem low, he’s obviously talking about raw lifters not with any regards to competition. My take on things is you average gym rat with some training was around a class three lifter in the men’s. Class two would be noticed as a strong guy. Master and elite would be qualifying for most nationals . The old mens nationals in the uspf would require around an elite total to slightly lower. Junior nationals would be around masters. Teenage and collegiates would be class one to masters range.
I’m talking three federation days , uspf, adfpa, apf. One collegiate meet I entered, the region collegiate nationals at PSU had over 20 entrants in the 148s. I think I finished 8/23 . And I was happy with my day.
So google the old class standards and use them for what you think Is elite to average . Average for a lifter might seem strong for a regular gal or guy just lifting .
[quote]OBoile wrote:
There are lots of guys there who might weigh 190-200 and bench 250-300 and they regularly get asked for training advice meanwhile the girl who weighs 115 and can bench 135 is ignored despite the fact that this is a far greater accomplishment.
[/quote]
Thank you for this perspective.
Both Ouroboro and I are involved in the competitive PLing community. We live thousands of miles away. And yet the only woman I’ve ever seen bench 225 raw is the exact same woman O cited: Jennifer Thompson. It is statistically a very rare endeavor. [/quote]
A gal that lifted in my old gym, Michelle Borzak did in the 225-240 range raw. She was around 148 . I’m thinking back of gyms, meets from all Feds , and athletes I know. I’m sure I’ve seen some more but can’t recall . Ive seen more geared 1000 or more squatters than raw drug free women bench 225. The ability is unique in both sets .
But observing things and drawing conclusions is where people err. I was in a room with 5-10 , 1000+ squatters . Of course it was a kettlebell seminar by Pavel at Westside. Jim Wendler, Chuck, Donnie Thompson , and a few others . Id have to check my pictures for the exact roll call.
But it’s still rare in the lifting world to do this .
