I Hate Welfare!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s amazing to see how easily politics and ideology trump people.

Poor people who want opportunity? Fuck them.

Educate the masses and broaden the tax base? Fuck them.

Health care? Fuck them.

This should be the conservative motto when it comes to their fellow man. Fuck them!

What really amazes me is the lack of traction of concepts concerning creating more productive people who raise the effectiveness of the workforce, increase the tax base and make the country better.

I too hate taxes. I too find income tax to be partial financial slavery. I hate it. However, I’m enough of a man to realize that most recipients of my taxes are deserving. Particularly, children who may as well be given a chance at a future. A chance to get educated, get a good job, and rise above the lifestyle of their parents.

What do I mean by phrasing it that way? I mean that I’m not so petty and mean that I’d want to deny all the good that comes from my taxes because some people are misusing it.

Instead of hopping up on your anti-social ideology, how about instead finding ways to fix systems, plug the leaks, or invent new systems.

Some of you people disgust me. Life is about people, not ideologies. Shoot, I’m incredibly pro citizens rights and anti-tax, but I still know that people are what matters. It’s not all about cash or right vs left ideologies.[/quote]

The second largest part of spending in an wealthy Victorian household was what?

82

[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s amazing to see how easily politics and ideology trump people.

Poor people who want opportunity? Fuck them.

Educate the masses and broaden the tax base? Fuck them.

Health care? Fuck them.

This should be the conservative motto when it comes to their fellow man. Fuck them!
[/quote]

And even if it was that way.

A dog-eat-dog society WORKS.

Welfare societies DONT.

At least not for long.

So are you mad ata conservatives point of view or are you rebelling against reality?

83

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Are you serious? Take a look at sexual attitudes today. Simply watch music videos, listen to music, look at the dress of young girls. Don’t forget mainstream movies and novels. It’s vastly different than what my grandfather grew up with.

The idea of being an unwed mother is much different than, let’s say, in the 50’s. Do I really need to get more specific? [/quote]

Further, how could it be a myth when its proponents are the ones telling us how great the impact of it has been?

84

[quote]Sloth wrote:
You’re ignoring a big piece of the debate. Which is, that behaviors contributing to poverty, are reinforced under welfare. That is, what sounds on the surface like a solution for poverty, is in fact a catalyst for a cycle of poverty. It’s not as simple as the right saying “Fuck people.”
[/quote]

No, I’m not quite ignoring it, it is something that has been discussed around here a few times before.

There are, or at least have been, a lot of problems with the incarnation of social help which amounts to a simple handout.

What I have a problem with is people sharpening their knives and wanting to do away with everything entirely, due to talking point personal ideology, instead of recognizing the positive goals and finding more appropriate ways to achieve them.

Throughout human history, raw divisions into have and have nots has lead to conflict. Generally, the have nots also get less education and end up with a lot more violent crimes. They do not pay much taxes and they have less to contribute to society.

Compared to that, we are doing fairly well, but as the right wing correctly points out, there are serious flaws in how programs and systems are operating and the effects they have.

It is absolutely true that our society should make sure that we don’t have starving malnourished children that don’t get a decent education. If we can’t find ways to ensure that, then we are no better than the third world countries that we disdain when they make their appearance on the evening news.

It’s also true that after a lifetime of honest work and payment of taxes, that society should be able to help old people do more than just live on the street waiting for a quick death.

So, yes, I hate taxes. Yes, I understand that there are a lot of problems with many of our current systems.

However, at some point, I’d like to see the right wing admit to actual human compassion and not try to twist it such that the flaws in current systems mean they are less compassionate than pure survival of the fittest.

Modern societies are not supposed to be a raw survival of the fittest scenario anymore. Yes, the problems that have sprung up with respect to entitlement and disincentive absolutely have to be corrected, now where do the right give any ground… as I’m continually recognizing and conceding issues?

Are there moderate republicans around here who hate taxes, who hate handouts, but understand that removing all public services will take us backwards in a way that is not positive… unless you also happen to be rich. Let’s see some of that much vaunted compassion and society responsibility.

I’m tired of the politics of “fuck them” when it comes to all of the supposed dead weight of society in the eyes of conservatives. There should be ways to fix these problems without taking such large steps backwards.

85

[quote]orion wrote:
And even if it was that way.

A dog-eat-dog society WORKS.

Welfare societies DONT.

At least not for long.

So are you mad ata conservatives point of view or are you rebelling against reality?
[/quote]

I’m not suggesting that we should have a “welfare society”. However, if you are calling all current western democracies welfare societies, I’m not sure you can claim they don’t work.

The standard of living in our societies is tremendous. Science and technology have progressed amazingly. Our health and longevity is ticking along just fine.

In fact, if the external threat of fundamentalist terrorism wasn’t raising it’s head, western democracies and their social policies would not currently be facing any issues that could threaten them in a real way.

They crushed the Soviet Union. They put a man on the moon. Tell me, other than the fact that people hate the ideologies so much, how western democracies are failing in general right now?

Large middle classes, public education, and so forth, mankind is ticking along just fine… is the US falling apart while the rest of the more socialized countries are not?

Where is the panic and indictment of social programs coming from? It is political and ideological but apparently not reality.

Sure, as I’m readily willing to admit, there are flaws that need fixing, but show me the failing of modern western democracies and their social programs… or are none of them truly welfare states?

86

[quote]Sloth wrote:
vroom wrote:
It’s amazing to see how easily politics and ideology trump people.

Poor people who want opportunity? Fuck them.

Educate the masses and broaden the tax base? Fuck them.

Health care? Fuck them.

This should be the conservative motto when it comes to their fellow man. Fuck them!

What really amazes me is the lack of traction of concepts concerning creating more productive people who raise the effectiveness of the workforce, increase the tax base and make the country better.

I too hate taxes. I too find income tax to be partial financial slavery. I hate it. However, I’m enough of a man to realize that most recipients of my taxes are deserving. Particularly, children who may as well be given a chance at a future. A chance to get educated, get a good job, and rise above the lifestyle of their parents.

What do I mean by phrasing it that way? I mean that I’m not so petty and mean that I’d want to deny all the good that comes from my taxes because some people are misusing it.

Instead of hopping up on your anti-social ideology, how about instead finding ways to fix systems, plug the leaks, or invent new systems.

Some of you people disgust me. Life is about people, not ideologies. Shoot, I’m incredibly pro citizens rights and anti-tax, but I still know that people are what matters. It’s not all about cash or right vs left ideologies.

You’re ignoring a big piece of the debate. Which is, that behaviors contributing to poverty, are reinforced under welfare. That is, what sounds on the surface like a solution for poverty, is in fact a catalyst for a cycle of poverty. It’s not as simple as the right saying “Fuck people.”

And, wanting to do away with welfare isn’t anti-social. It’s an involuntary system where the government takes care of everything, after all. Now, deliberately giving to one’s charity of choice, time or money, is a wonderful social endeavor.
[/quote]

I’m not sure he is forgetting the dilemma you point out.

“Instead of hopping up on your anti-social ideology, how about instead finding ways to fix systems, plug the leaks, or invent new systems.”

Seems to cover it in my opinion and could easily include a larger portion of personal charitable initiative.

But is giving to one’s charity of choice enough on it’s own to get the job done?

Some members of society need social assistance. Orphans, and all children to some extent, and elderly, and the infirm are among them.

It is a hard sell to state that a tax based government is never the appropriate vehicle for providing such assistance.

87

[quote]vroom wrote:

Are there moderate republicans around here who hate taxes, who hate handouts, but understand that removing all public services will take us backwards in a way that is not positive… unless you also happen to be rich. Let’s see some of that much vaunted compassion and society responsibility.[/quote]

I think you have overstated the case, but let’s do an accounting.

I do not believe in the removal of all public services and never have. I believe these services are better handled the more local they are, and would like to see them limited at the federal level, along with general reform.

But not do away with them. So there is one.

I also think it is important to remember that many conservatives - even ones frustrated with welfare - don’t think we should get rid of all of it. The Internet has a way of heightening the voices of radicals disproportionate to their real representation in the world of real affairs.

88

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
You’re ignoring a big piece of the debate. Which is, that behaviors contributing to poverty, are reinforced under welfare. That is, what sounds on the surface like a solution for poverty, is in fact a catalyst for a cycle of poverty. It’s not as simple as the right saying “Fuck people.”

No, I’m not quite ignoring it, it is something that has been discussed around here a few times before.

There are, or at least have been, a lot of problems with the incarnation of social help which amounts to a simple handout.
[/quote]

You are also confusing things that are paid for with things that are done by the government.

While basic eduction and healthcare is probably a must, there is no need for the government to run schools or hospitals.

89

[quote]vroom wrote:
orion wrote:
And even if it was that way.

A dog-eat-dog society WORKS.

Welfare societies DONT.

At least not for long.

So are you mad ata conservatives point of view or are you rebelling against reality?

I’m not suggesting that we should have a “welfare society”. However, if you are calling all current western democracies welfare societies, I’m not sure you can claim they don’t work.

The standard of living in our societies is tremendous. Science and technology have progressed amazingly. Our health and longevity is ticking along just fine.

In fact, if the external threat of fundamentalist terrorism wasn’t raising it’s head, western democracies and their social policies would not currently be facing any issues that could threaten them in a real way.

They crushed the Soviet Union. They put a man on the moon. Tell me, other than the fact that people hate the ideologies so much, how western democracies are failing in general right now?
[/quote]

Debt.

Add government promises to the official debt and it will never ever be paid back.

The German ratio is 1 to 4 , 4 being future obligations for pensions etc THAT DO NOT APPEAR IN ANY budget.

How does mass-inflation, enourmous poverty among the elderly and a gigantic shock to the global market sound to you?

Massive debt, compound interest and demographics, IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT HAPPENS, RIGHT NOW.

90

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Are you serious? Take a look at sexual attitudes today. Simply watch music videos, listen to music, look at the dress of young girls. Don’t forget mainstream movies and novels. It’s vastly different than what my grandfather grew up with.

The idea of being an unwed mother is much different than, let’s say, in the 50’s. Do I really need to get more specific?

Further, how could it be a myth when its proponents are the ones telling us how great the impact of it has been?
[/quote]
But there is NO impact. This so called revolution was only publicized in the 60’s when it was easy to point a finger at hippies. You think this wasn’t going on in the 20’s when parents were able to blame swing music for their children’s behavior? I guarantee you it goes much deeper than just a “new” attitude toward sexual proclivity.

The problem with welfare isn’t the “sexual revolution”. Its because we live in an entitlement society. We as a society believe we have rights that may or may not even inherently exist.

The flip side of the coin is how do we provide for those that really need welfare–a grandmother raising her children’s children, for example–without contributing to the entitlement mind-set?

91

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I also think it is important to remember that many conservatives - even ones frustrated with welfare - don’t think we should get rid of all of it. The Internet has a way of heightening the voices of radicals disproportionate to their real representation in the world of real affairs.[/quote]

It would be nice to hear from more moderate voices at times as well… lest the radicals brand you the way the loony left is used to brand liberals.

92

[quote]orion wrote:
Debt.

Add government promises to the official debt and it will never ever be paid back.

The German ratio is 1 to 4 , 4 being future obligations for pensions etc THAT DO NOT APPEAR IN ANY budget.

How does mass-inflation, enourmous poverty among the elderly and a gigantic shock to the global market sound to you?

Massive debt, compound interest and demographics, IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT HAPPENS, RIGHT NOW.[/quote]

Hey, I recognize huge debts as a bad thing, and that there are risks involved, but as of now they are risks of financial troubles.

It would depend on the outcome of a financial fallout before we can decide that it must mean the failure of modern democracies.

Some, but not all, western countries are managing their debt quite well. Are the potential failures in some to be an indictment of them all?

Again, it is potentially a path to failure, but it is far too early to draw conclusions that we must all march down that path and promptly fail.

93

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

But there is NO impact. This so called revolution was only publicized in the 60’s when it was easy to point a finger at hippies. You think this wasn’t going on in the 20’s when parents were able to blame swing music for their children’s behavior? I guarantee you it goes much deeper than just a “new” attitude toward sexual proclivity. [/quote]

Nonsense - Sloth showed you the statistics of births outside of wedlock. Part of the sexual revolution was untethering sex to any kind of committed relationship - thereby liberating the people interested in sex - there is no question the attitude has been changed by the hedonistic approach ushered in in the 1960s.

Sex has always been around, even since your vaunted 1920s - that hasn’t changed. What has changed is how we view it - and the results have been devastating.

It is that too - they are intertwined. Never forget, an entitlement society is based on one simple premise: whatever ill you suffer, it isn’t your fault.

Fast forward to the wages of the sexual revolution. You take stupid chances, encouraged by the “if it feels good do it” approach, and get into trouble? You don’t have to live with the consequences - you are entitled to society’s help, because it isn’t your fault.

We supply the stimulus to get into trouble, and then we create the entitlement by telling them “it’s not your fault you are in trouble”.

94

[quote]vroom wrote:
orion wrote:
Debt.

Add government promises to the official debt and it will never ever be paid back.

The German ratio is 1 to 4 , 4 being future obligations for pensions etc THAT DO NOT APPEAR IN ANY budget.

How does mass-inflation, enourmous poverty among the elderly and a gigantic shock to the global market sound to you?

Massive debt, compound interest and demographics, IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, IT HAPPENS, RIGHT NOW.

Hey, I recognize huge debts as a bad thing, and that there are risks involved, but as of now they are risks of financial troubles.

It would depend on the outcome of a financial fallout before we can decide that it must mean the failure of modern democracies.

Some, but not all, western countries are managing their debt quite well. Are the potential failures in some to be an indictment of them all?

Again, it is potentially a path to failure, but it is far too early to draw conclusions that we must all march down that path and promptly fail.[/quote]

We are allready on that path. This is not a future worst case scenario, this is what is happening right now.

Probably not to Suisse but they never had to deal with war-driven socialism either.

95

Birth control allowed women to act like men with respect to sexual freedom.

Anyhow, as much as some may not like it, you can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

As for fault, that is a tricky thing. We don’t need entitlement and we don’t need to tell people that nothing is their fault. I think everyone can agree with that.

However, when someone makes a mistake, it isn’t true that they and their progeny should suffer as absolutely and as deeply as possible.

We all fall, somehow, sometime. Having a society that can help people learn and recover from mistakes is something to be proud of.

Is it a product of Hollywood that has us now expecting one shot success and perfection? The reality of life pretty much denies this for the vast majority of people.

Does everyone deserve another shot, perhaps not, are they entitled to it, no, but if they take a second shot and become a valuable contributor to society then we are all better off for it.

96

[quote]orion wrote:
We are allready on that path. This is not a future worst case scenario, this is what is happening right now.

Probably not to Suisse but they never had to deal with war-driven socialism either.[/quote]

Sure, and the sky is falling too.

I know that debt is a way to blow up society, but hopefully we’ll adjust before we run off the rails.

I strongly suspect, as is usually the case, that when a true emergency does arise that the resilience of people and society will then emerge. This is especially true if one country fails and serves as a warning to the rest. Who will be the warning canary?

However, while I’m perfectly willing to recognize the ability of debt to create a dire situation, I’m not willing to roll over and declare defeat as of yet.

97

[quote]vroom wrote:
orion wrote:
We are allready on that path. This is not a future worst case scenario, this is what is happening right now.

Probably not to Suisse but they never had to deal with war-driven socialism either.

Sure, and the sky is falling too.

I know that debt is a way to blow up society, but hopefully we’ll adjust before we run off the rails.

I strongly suspect, as is usually the case, that when a true emergency does arise that the resilience of people and society will then emerge. This is especially true if one country fails and serves as a warning to the rest. Who will be the warning canary?

However, while I’m perfectly willing to recognize the ability of debt to create a dire situation, I’m not willing to roll over and declare defeat as of yet.[/quote]

you do not have to.

It is the end of the welfare state and probably democracy in a lot of countries though.

Where you are wrong is that the sky is, indeed, allready falling, just because it does so too slow for you to notice makes no difference.

You are reacting like someone that has grown up with a falling sky and thinks that this is how things ought to be, but no, that bitch is coming down and this is not a good thing.

Personally, I plan to be deeeep in dollar an euro debt when that happens, with a fixed interest rate of course, and smiling.

98

[quote]orion wrote:
It is the end of the welfare state and probably democracy in a lot of countries though.

Where you are wrong is that the sky is, indeed, allready falling, just because it does so too slow for you to notice makes no difference.
[/quote]

LOL.

If I lived in the US I would probably be a bit more worried about this. I just hope that the US is not the canary that first goes tits up due to debt.

99

As I have stated before, if we keep welfare but tell everyone on it that they have to be on birth control, we could add to the bennies to help get back on their feet AND it would weed itself out within about 2 generations.

mike

100

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:

It was a general statement, and you took it as a specific one to create an argument. Nice.

Joke is this: Conservatives get angry at poor people who have babies we must support. Conservatives get angry when we try to teach them how to not have babies. Conservatives get angry when we try to prevent babies from being born into a terrible situation.

It’s called irony. And yes, it deserves the term pwnage.

  1. This girl (and the fathers) knew sex can lead to pregnancy.

  2. You can’t convince me this girl (and the fathers), in this day and age, were completely unaware of the concept of birth control.

A lack of condoms, birth control, and sex ed., is not the problem. Catholicism, nor conservatism created this mess.

If anything did, it was the liberal ideals of the sexual revolution. Look at the decline in status marriage has experienced in our society. Then, factor in the decline of shame, guilt, sexual mores, and self-restraint we see running rampant in our society and media.

Ah, then there’s that wonderful welfare system. That brilliant system which rewards the most self destructive behaviors…

Those interested might want to look at illegitimate births from 1965 and prior. Then, look from 1965 to the present. Do some googling.

1965: 7.7% of births are out of wedlock
2006: 37%…Nearly 4 out of 10 babies folks…That is not a healthy figure.

Conservatism, religion, and prudishness isn’t to blame. Or, the years and numbers above would be reversed. Sadly, they aren’t.

No, the blame falls on the liberalization of cultural norms and morals. And now taxpayers are stuck paying for the bloated consequences.

[/quote]

Your joking, right? PLENTY of people don’t know JACK about birth control and baby making. A good portion of my highschool thinks pulling out is an effective form of birth control. STI’s still spread like wildfire in High schools.

And we still have concepts of abstinence only education in many areas.

Wtf?

I’m not BLAMING religion or lack of sex ed for the babies. I’m just saying it’s ironic that conservatives don’t want the babies, but refuse to do anything to educate people so they WON’T have the goddamn kid.