@ncsugrad2002 I am injecting .40ml 2x per week. .80ml a week total.
@dextermorgan How is HCG giving me a false impression if my blood labs are showing my numbers are good? I don’t understand why established providers with good reputation have said nothing of sorts as far as dropping HCG.
Any thoughts on the doctor’s comment on switching to cream over injecting?
I feel like I already addressed this. Perhaps in another thread. Weird.
You have low cortisol. Do a 24-Hour Saliva cortisol test. You need to fix the underlying problem causing low cortisol. Your body cannot use the thyroid hormones without cortisol to get it into the cells. TRT makes this problem worse as it suppresses glucocorticoid (cortisol) production. Do NOT take Hydrocortisone tablets. It will makes things worse as you are simply going to add severe suppression to the adrenal glands.
Did you mean 400? 40 is pissing in the ocean.
He/she is right. Labs are taken at trough, which is to say when you would normally inject but before the injection.
I think he’s at 160 mg a week, actually. .4 mL of 200/mL times twice a week should be 160 mg. But he needs to try 200 mg and get new labs at trough. And drop the HCG during dial in.
@hardartery - Yes I meant 400IU HCG. You also suggest dropping HCG? I do not understand why HCG is hurting the cause if it’s only helping testosterone production?
@TRT_Phoenix - I am ordering a cortisol test. I feel like I relate with high cortisol causes/symptoms more than low cortisol, however. I’ve read treating high cortisol is lowering training volume/intensity, rest, sleep, avoid caffeine. What is recommended if the test shows low cortisol?
Dude. You came here for possible solutions correct?
We’re giving you some. I mean how many stories have you read of Drs not knowing what they’re doing or steering patients wrong?
Personally HCG didn’t agree with me either. I’m still dialing in and i just decided to titrate up to 200mg split twice weekly. I had some feelings of libido but pretty light. I’ve been on that high of a dose before with hcg and my dick felt dead.
That cortisol test is an ABSOLUTE waste of money. If you feel like you have symptoms, you can literally just start taking whatever supplements if anything. No need to drop a bagillllllion dollars on this test.
Cream should also be a viable option for you. I’ve read many people having TONS of success with cream. If injections don’t work, ill definitely look into cream.
Worry about fertility and add in hcg AFTER. I want kids too but i give wayyyyyy more of a fuck about being sexual vital than having to stay fertile all the time.
Obviously what you’re doing and what your providers are telling you has you stuck and has stalled your results. If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.
It’s not LH, it’s an LH mimic. Some people’s bodies just don’t really like it for some reason.
Exactly
It’s because many folks don’t have a good reaction to HCG. If you had those same levels (like I do) from T only you’d almost certainly have a much more positive experience. You are obviously not sold on dropping it yet but you’ll likely get to a point where you do and you’ll be pissed the answer was right in front of you the whole time. Sort of like how I was after a year using AI’s thinking that whole time “but my doctor said people don’t have issues on it”.
Dr Nichols at Tier1 has many folks on cream that are thriving. I don’t have experience with it but he’s told me himself it works so I’m inclined to believe him.
I appreciate the inputs. Given differing opinions of people on this forum and doctors, I like to be armed with as much information from valid resources, as well as other people’s experiences.
I am going to go ahead and get the 4-point saliva test, as I align with basically all symptoms of high cortisol, and the test was $125.
As far as dropping the HCG, I will talk with my provider about this.
If HCG is dropped , what adjustments would need to be made to the testosterone dosage? From .40ml of 200mg/ml test cyp 2x per week to what?
How long is the “dialing in process”?
Since fertility is important, when should HCG be introduced? And when actually trying to conceive what all adjustments in entire protocol should be taken?
I’m going to discuss this with my provider to get their take.
That’s a question for which no one can answer because response to TRT varies so wildly.
You don’t want to be making to many changes at once, make one change at a time.
You could reduce your T dosing a little when adding HCG in an attempt to minimize sides.
I’m curious what your provider has to say about your lack of progress.
My provider suggested cream instead of injections, since I wasn’t seeing any benefit yet. He said this would primarily help libido, as that is something that he would expect to have improved by now. He said the other benefits would likely be the same whether cream or injections, and it may just take more time.
The other provider I spoke to to get another opinion, I asked about HCG complications, and he was adamant that they keep HCG in protocols the entire time, particularly with men wanting to keep fertility.
As far as simply removing HCG and changing nothing with testosterone dosage, it sounds like it’s suggested that HCG is PREVENTING the testosterone to do it’s work? I still do not understand this, as HCG would only HELP produce more testosterone, right? Are their resources that explain the complications people have with HCG in their TRT protocol as opposed to just testosterone?
You certainly wouldn’t be the first to not respond to injections, but I still think there is something else going on preventing you from responding as you should be.
I believe there might be another motive for keeping you on HCG, you doc knows fertility is very important to you and I imagine losing fertility could cause some serious stress down the road.
None of this is an absolute.
Firstly, how would you suspect that something else may be hindering his testosterone without any real evidence? There are people who’ve legitimately just switched to cream and every thing finally comes together, sometimes it’s that simple.
Secondly he would more than likely be able to regain his fertility. However it would be more prudent to try to figure his testosterone first and then add hcg. If anything, OP could always freeze his sperm and then try it if he wanted to.
I suggest that you start broadening what you’re willing to do in order to get optimized, @Stealthforce . If you’re not willing to try cream down the road or you insist on always staying on HCG, you could Ben hindering your ability to find answers just out of sheer stubbornness.
Everything must be on the table. We just gotta check the list off on things that’s may or may not work 1 by 1
I’m trying to attack this at ever angle and get multiple opinions to hopefully begin to fel improvement. However, it seems this is getting me differing opinions. I spoke with the other provider today to bounce some of these suggestions off him. These were the responses.
On the questions of stopping HCG (with fertility still being important to me down the road):
Provider said he never does this with his patients. He in fact, he said he normally has his patients on double my HCG dosage.
On questions of switching to cream instead of injections:
He said 70% of his patients respond well to cream but they do cream only because they do not feel like injecting. Said he has never seen a patient who didn’t respond to injections, but only responded well to cream.
On question about cortisol imbalance affecting TRT:
Said cortisol imbalance can cause issues, but does not interfere with TRT. TRT would still be needed to address the testosterone problem, and cortisol would be treated separately.
This provider’s suggestions:
He suggested stopping Testosterone for 6 days and make sure to not take thyroid medication 12 hours before labs, get the new lab work, then get a consult with him so he can get a better idea of dosage. It seems like if I’m not seeing improvement with current protocol, he would likely look at my uninflated numbers, and perscribe different dosage. I’m guessing an increase in testosterone and HCG per week. He also said he has his patients inject 4x per week, or every day, depending on their preference.
So people in this thread seem to strongly urge to drop HCG, while this doctor suggests quite the opposite. I want to conceive in the future, and I certainly want to begin seeing improvements soon. I certainly appreciate all the feedback, experiences, and suggestions. However I’m unsure what to do with all this conflicting information.
Listen im 26 and want to have kids too.
I’ve decided to drop the hcg and figure out testosterone first. I can always add hcg in later and regain fertility.
Besides, id rather live a great life with the risk of not having kids than maintaining that fertility and never being optimized.
There are plenty of guys who haven’t been on hcg for YEARS and still conceive with hcg when its ready. Of course i understand your fears, it isn’t guaranteed, but it isnt impossible to regain fertility later.
I’d also be wary of anybody that speaks in absolutes. Is your Dr trying to help you or is he trying to do it his way?
If you don’t want to drop the hcg or do the cream yet, thats cool. Those options are always going to be there.
Take each action one step at a time.
Decide what your next course of action and try it. If it doesn’t work, cross it off your list and try again.
This is going to be a game of trial and error. Hopefully with time you’ll be able to get it right.
@barryallan1 - I’m curious of your startiung protocol, and your current protocol, and what changes you’ve seen from dropping the HCG. Care to share?
I’m self prescribed technically.
I could get it prescribed now but i have a great guy i can get from whenever.
I’ve always been a monday and thursday injecter. I’ve tried every 5 days to no avail and i didnt stick out e3d long enough up until recently, it didn’t make sense to me to go from 3.5 to 3.
I feel better off hcg however it wasn’t that factor in my optimization, at least not yet. I felt more lethargic on hcg and my dick felt super dead sometimes. Like super limp and lifeless. I’ve done 500iu twice weekly, 250iu twice weekly, 3x, etc. Never made me feel any better.
My plan is to do 100mg e3.5d and do that for 8-12 weeks. If that doesn’t work, I’ll start to warm up to the idea of more frequent injections and do EOD then daily if necessary.
I haven’t been good at sticking with something long enough. Its like something goes off inside me around weeks 3-4 where i get impatient, talk myself out of a protocol, change it, then regret that i have to go back to week 1. The longest ive been on a single protocol has been 6 weeks on the dot.
Now that I’m aware of my own bad habits, hopefully waiting is all that i need to do to optimize.
I’ll consider how ill incorporate hcg into my protocol once i get it dialed in.
I think everyone on this thread has suggested stopping HCG temporarily. Try just test and see what happens, then you add HCG later and see what changes. The HCG may not be a problem at all, but you can’t know if you don’t add it separately to see it’s effects.
With HCG removed, what is a good timeline of monitoring symptoms to know if HCG has been the problem during this time?
The HCG should be gone completely in a couple of days. Give it a couple of weeks and see how you are. Best to give it 8 weeks and see how the test alone settles out.