Shots every two weeks is insane and once a week drives some folks partly insane I think that this practice goes back to doctor visits for the injections and once a week was too much.
You can draw up test cyp into a .5ml #29 insulin syringe. It takes time. The B alcohol will boil in the vacuum and will reincorporate as it fills.
I am on 100mg/wk. I tried 14mg ED to see what dead level felt like. After 3 weeks of that I tried 28mg EOD and I feel that that is much better. Perhaps some variation is important. I inject in the vastus lateralis. The .5 inch needle is fine for IM injections of these small amounts, providing that the skin/fat on your legs is thin. You can depress the skin when you inject as well. Look for and dodge small veins to avoid bruising.
Test cyp is cheap at Samās Club with a business membership ($42.50 for Watsonās 10ml @200mg/ml, 10,000 IU of HCG, American Pharmaceutical Partners costs $16.25, 100 .5ml #23 syringes cost $18 and 100 .5ml #29 .5" insulin syringes cost $12. So these might be cheaper than many insurance co-pays. I also get 4 injections out of one test cyp load (.56 ml) and 2 injections out of 1 HCG load. Next HCG I will dilute to 5ml instead of 10ml and get 4 injections from one load. Clean needle with swab after injection then re-cap. Many diabetics re-use like this.
All of these trans-dermal solutions are costly!!! If insurance pays for it, no problem. But many pay out of their own pockets and it is good that injection is the best and cheapest solution.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Shots every two weeks is insane and once a week drives some folks partly insane I think that this practice goes back to doctor visits for the injections and once a week was too much.[/quote]
I asked the endo about weekly shots, and he said no ā once every two weeks. So I guess I will follow his protocol, see how it goes, etc. I have an office visit scheduled in a month, so If it isnāt working right then I can pressure him.
FWIW, the PDR entry on the test I will be taking ( a Testosterone Enanthate) gives presents some reasoning on every two weeks:
Thanks for the tips on insulin syringes, costs, etc. It isnāt real clear to me how insurance is going to work on this ā they are very good about paying for the topical testosterone, but there is no mention on their website of injectible testosterone, and the rep I talked to on the phone kept wanting to think that testicular failure was the same thing as erectile dysfunction. At any rate, as long as I learn to self-inject it doesnāt seem like costs will be too bad.
Mostly I just want to start feeling better. Hope this will do it. Wish me luck.
Yes it has a long half life, but that is not the point. The language in things like that is part of the FDA approval process and cannot be easily changed even if there is a good reason. And a reason that does not make more money for the drug manufacturer is not a good reason. And the half life of these things depends on the dose and that is never discussed.
Dosing every two weeks will start off with testosterone levels that are very high. You will be over stimulated. During the second week your hormone levels will crash and you will not do well on that hormone roller coaster. Your body had a natural pattern of hormone levels and it was not a spike every two weeks.
The idea of HRT is to restore your hormone levels. The intent never was to jerk these levels up and down. You need to see past the language of the product monographs and understand things at a deeper level, and so does your doctor who should have a higher regard for your well being.
It is ok to have an opinion, but that does not mean that your opinion is correct. Remain open minded about these things. If you are self injecting, you are under control and you can try once a week or twice a week and listen to what your body is telling you.
I donāt think that you will find any injecting TRT veterans here that will support injections every two weeks.
I am not trying to be critical. I am trying to guide you towards taking control of this yourself and finding out what works best for you.
[quote]KSman wrote:
The idea of HRT is to restore your hormone levels. The intent never was to jerk these levels up and down. You need to see past the language of the product monographs and understand things at a deeper level, and so does your doctor who should have a higher regard for your well being.
It is ok to have an opinion, but that does not mean that your opinion is correct. Remain open minded about these things. If you are self injecting, you are under control and you can try once a week or twice a week and listen to what your body is telling you.[/quote]
ā
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote: I donāt know a single user of test enanthate that would agree with that statement. Most know from experience that even 1 shot/ week can mess you around.
Anyway, I hope you can take ownership of your own condition, and figure out a dose and protocol that has you feeling as you would like to.[/quote]
ā
Got it, guys ā you make damn good sense. I appreciate the swift kick in the ass.
I just got back from my how-to-inject-yrself lesson w the nurse. Doing the injection was easy as pie.
Brief introduction since Iām new: Iām 34yo, 5ā10", 185# 17%BF. Lifting 4 -5x per week.
About 3 years ago I was diagnosed with low-T; I was 31 at the time. My initial symptoms were what seems to be typical; low to non-exist libido, lethargy, lack of concentration, unreliable erections; blah, blah, blah. Iāve had blood work every 6 months with my total T in the 190 - 340 range for every test. Free T ranges from 8.5 to 14.2.
My doctor, who is an otherwise great guy, has been very resistant for these three long years to putting me on HRT; mostly because he claims that Iām too young to be having these issues. For awhile he even claimed that itās all in my head.
So, this past week I finally put my foot down and insisted that āsomethingā just wasnāt right. He did blood work (AGAIN!) and this time T came back at 314 total and 5.4 free. He finally agreed to start me on Androgel 2.5G packs.
Three questions to those with experience with Androgel (with maybe more to come).
Will Androgel merely supplement my existing T production, or will my balls shut down and atrophy at this dose?
Will this dose actually do any good? Most folks in this forum seem to be on 5, 7.5 or 10G doses.
Will starting Androgel be a permanent āmaintenanceā type solution? If I go off the Androgel will my natural T production return to pre-dosing levels or will it crash to near nothing?
[quote]jwpinva wrote:
My doctor, who is an otherwise great guy, has been very resistant for these three long years to putting me on HRT; mostly because he claims that Iām too young to be having these issues. For awhile he even claimed that itās all in my head.[/quote]
Get yourself a referral to somebody who doesnāt have his head up his ass. Of course, you may need to handle the conversation a bit more delicately than my choice of words.
Anyway, you should be able to get to see the right type of person via urology or via endocrinology. It may be possible to self-refer or to switch doctors. Alternately, doctors that deal with athletes often know a thing or two about these issues as well.
Look around. It sounds like you and your current doctor will be stumbling around as he figures out that administering exogenous T simply replaces your own endogenous production. Let him learn on someone else.
[quote]jwpinva wrote:
My doctor, who is an otherwise great guy, has been very resistant for these three long years to putting me on HRT; mostly because he claims that Iām too young to be having these issues. For awhile he even claimed that itās all in my head.
So, this past week I finally put my foot down and insisted that āsomethingā just wasnāt right. He did blood work (AGAIN!) and this time T came back at 314 total and 5.4 free. He finally agreed to start me on Androgel 2.5G packs.[/quote]
Jay, just to echo everybody else, you need to get a referral to a doctor who will actually help you.
I would suggest going to an endocrinologist, who will look at the big picture and see why your testosterone levels are so low. And then treat it w the most appropriate treatment.
HRT is for life. Like you I was worried about that at first. But I would rather feel great with HRT then feel like absolute crap with the pathetic ānaturalā output of my failed testicles.
(Iām not to the feeling great part yet, but I know I am on the right path)
Anyway, get to another doctor. You deserve better.
āWith regard to the long-term issuesā¦ No one can say for definite as the whole HRT thing is still a bit too new to have data from really long term users.ā
Perhaps not. We do have long term data on what happens with years of low testosterone. So long term TRT simply avoids or reduces metal decline, passivity, depression [caused by?]loss of sexuality, loss of strength and balance/stability, bone loss, falls and fractures, endothelial dysfunction, high cholesterol levels, various disease outcomes from the prior two which also contribute to syndrome X, diabetes, circulatory/peripheral problems of diabetes, circulatory degradation of the kidneys, leading to kidney failure perhaps precipitated by the oxidative shock of the radio opaque dye used in the angiogram to deal with the messed up arteries. Where does this list end?
Any idea when this shot might start to kick in? I gave it to myself Wednesday, 200mg with the nurse supervising. I had a little glimmer that I might be feeling better on Saturday, but today, Sunday, I woke up feeling pretty worn out and tired, like usual.
I got a call back from not-my-regular nurse on the issue, who qualified by saying that HRT is not her area, just covering while my real nurse is out ā pretty much got the āeverybody is different, it is a time released testosterone, who knows?ā
Searching the boards Iāve seen that you outta feel a test cyp shot in 7 to 10 days, but couldnāt find anything on testosterone enanthate.
[quote]You will have very high T levels and be quite low at the end of two weeks. We have covered all of that beforeā¦
Soon you should feel a real kick in the pants.
Some body remodeling will occur, you might need to eat differently.
[/quote]
I am definately get that dosage divided up properly as soon as I can.
As to eating ā thatās interesting you bring it up ā I had been planning on starting a new program tomorrow; I eat pretty clean in general. 5 meals a day, etc but was really going to make a concerted effort to tighten it up and lose some fat in the next three months.
I was carrying some extra weight before, but I started getting really soft when my levels started heading down into the basement w the androgel and striant ā ha ha go figure.
Pretty much I was going to go with a gram of protein per body weight, and go 40% protein 40% low-glycemic carbs and 20% fats. And bust my butt in the gym as much as possible. Does that sound like where I outta be?
Guys - one thing I forgot to mention in my first post was that Iāve already been using Tribulus for the past two years - two 625mg capsules daily. Yeah - and my natural T was STILL in the 190 - 340 range.
A little more detail about me: I got the low T diagnosis after I complained to my doctor about ED issues. I took up weight lifting after the low T diagnosis. I read that decreasing fat mass and increasing lean body mass was a natural way to improve testosterone, so I devoted myself.
Iāve lost 35lbs and Iāve built some nice tone since I was diagnosed, but Iām still at low T with all the problems that low T brings. Iām not concerned so much with getting bigger/leaner as I am with resolving the sexual/quality of life stuff.
Vroom - thanks for the candid response. Much appreciation to everyone that weighed in. Hereās my plan of action. I started the 2.5G of Androgel on Saturday morning so, as of now, Iām on day 3 of using. Iām going to give it 30 days until my follow-up blood work with my general practitioner. If, at that point, Iām not seeing better results Iām going to ask for a referal to an endo. Iām not going to be a guniea pig for my doc no matter how much I like him personally.
Question to the group: Should I stop taking the Tribulus? Should I continue to take it in the hopes that it will continue to stimulate my natural T production in spite of the Androgel?
I expect to see other posts suggesting that your doc is insane. This small amount will simply trigger your feedback system to reduce LH. Your testes will produce less testosterone and your levels may not change. And transdermal test can sometimes not be well absorbed or lead to more coversion of the T to DHT.
You need enough T to replace what your body makes now and that gets you to the same point you are at now, then more than that starts to increase T.
If the testes are ok, but not getting enough LH to make them work properly, then HCG can replace the HCG.
So there are many issues, but the only thing that is clear is that small amounts of transdermal T are useless.
Injections work better than transdermal. The drug reps make a lot of money telling doctors to put folks on transdermals. Injections can be very inexpensive. Insurance issues change the outcome for some.
[quote]jwpinva wrote: Hereās my plan of action. I started the 2.5G of Androgel on Saturday morning so, as of now, Iām on day 3 of using. Iām going to give it 30 days until my follow-up blood work with my general practitioner. If, at that point, Iām not seeing better results Iām going to ask for a referal to an endo. Iām not going to be a guniea pig for my doc no matter how much I like him personally.
Question to the group: Should I stop taking the Tribulus? Should I continue to take it in the hopes that it will continue to stimulate my natural T production in spite of the Androgel?[/quote]
Jay - personally I would stop taking the Tribulus to make sure that I got a more accurate reading on the 30 day follow-up blood work.
Remembering our high-school science classes, you want to eliminate as many variables so you get accurate data.
JMHO but it just makes sense to me that you need to see exactly where you are with out expensive supplements ā and when the doc sees the 2.5 androgel is not helping, then you will either get the dosage corrected or you will be sent on to an endo.
So yesterday, 8 days after that first shot of 200mg shot of delatestryl, I had pretty much given up on feeling better.
Last night though I was unable to fall asleep until 3:30am, which isnāt like me at all. I woke up a couple of times during the night with āwoodā.
While I only got about 5 hrs sleep, I felt strangely energetic when I hit the gym mid morning. Even now, although I have that not-enough-sleep feeling, I feel like I might get a few things accomplished today rather than having to just give up on life and take a nap.
Hope this isnāt all just wishful thinking. Hope it lasts a few days and the crash isnāt too bad before the next shot.
To everyone here fustrated with your docs - DUMP THEM. Find yourself a doctor specializing in age management therapy, anti aging and the like. These people are LOOKING for people like you at any age. I have a doctor like this.
Unless your testing high range, they will help you get there. Bottom line.
I think that this practice goes back to doctor visits for the injections and once a week was too much.