[quote]hspder wrote:
Anthony Roberts wrote:
It’s odd, that you’d claim my teachers were left wing. I went to Seton Hall University, which is a Catholic university.
It’s all relative. Catholics are clearly to the left of HH’s views. At least in the US.
It’s actually quite fascinating how in Europe the Catholic Church is associated with the far right (they went as far as basically supporting Hitler), while here they are seen as lefties because a majority of Catholics do associate themselves with the Democratic party…
[/quote]
Most Catholics are, in my experience, in favor of all the Left’s talking points (except abortion). That cost the Dems in the past elections.
[quote]hspder wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
If your sarcasm went over my head, I apologize, but it sure looked like you didn’t know what the Big 10 was.
Things are seldom what they look like. And, as I said, it is such a trivial and common piece of knowledge I’m flabbergasted by the level of fuss my sarcastic remark created.
Talking about sarcasm, I am having problems reconciling these two seemingly contradictory comments:
GDollars37 wrote:
It’s your elitism everyone is having fun with here, not your intelligence.
Relax.
or
GDollars37 wrote:
I’m halfway through a PhD myself, only my first, but I’ve been in academia long enough to realize degrees, and even an elite university pedigree, are often not as much of a stamp of intellect as one might think.
?
It sounds a bit passive-aggressive, that’s all.
[/quote]
Might come off that way I guess.
History, examining at British small wars of the interwar period, mostly India, Iraq, Palestine and Ireland. It started off as mostly a look at the tactical and technological issues, but has veered into larger strategic and economic (a subject I know very little about) territory.
[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
ON the site, linked to, we see:
“Matt Damon, playing a working-class wunderkind in the 1997 movie Good Will Hunting, quoted from Zinn’s book to show up an arrogant Harvard boy (and impress a Harvard girl).”
As a point of note, the book is mentioned by name not at this part of the movie [when another book is referenced, in light of the topic at hand which I belive is, though can’t spell- pre-aggrerian societies].
The book is mentioned by name when Damon’s character is reviewing the books in the Williams character’s office, and suggests that Zinn’s book is better than the ones he finds on Williams shelf. Williams counters with a reference to Chomsky’s “Manufactured Consent”.
If anyone’s interested, I’ve read everything ever written by both Zinn as well as Chomsky. And I’ve (obviously) seen Good Will Hunting about a zillion times.
If you’re interested in American History, then Zinn’s book is a good read, and is fully referenced with primary texts, for the most part.
Thats where the name comes from. “A People’s History of the United States” was written by examining what actual people (not historians) who were living at the time had to say about things.[/quote]
Nice post Anthony. I’ve read Manufacturing Consent and it has been one of the most influential books on my current political and corporate views. I’m in the middle of reading Zinn’s A Peoples History… I believe Chad Waterbury may have sighted this as one of his favorite readings(Zinn’s book). It’s eye opening and a nice counter to the Corporate history books taught in most high school and college classes.
By the way have you ever watched the documentary Manufacturing Consent? It is excellent.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Well this thread has convinced to read this book. I needed something to stimulate the old brain this summer. It sounds interesting, no matter how fucked up/accurate it is.[/quote]
It’s an account of history from the masses point of view. Unlike the corporate elite viewpoints of most “history” books. It’s a fantastic read so far…
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Well this thread has convinced to read this book. I needed something to stimulate the old brain this summer. It sounds interesting, no matter how fucked up/accurate it is.
It’s an account of history from the masses point of view. Unlike the corporate elite viewpoints of most “history” books. It’s a fantastic read so far…[/quote]
‘Corporate elite’? Hey, I think we’ve got a genuine marxist in our midst!
Marxism aside, with all the blatant errors and half-truths in this book, how is it anywhere in the ballpark, with regard to legitimate history? Its a shoddy ramble by a kook!
Here’s an example: Zinn claims that Washington was the wealthiest man at the time in America. Scholars almost universally say that Robert Morris of Pennsylvania was the wealthiest. Now, why would Zinn say what he did? Was it to somehow impugn Washington as a greedy prick, out for more power and money (Washington actually lost about half his net worth during the war, neglected his business, and NEVER took a leave of abscence in 8 years. He also SURRENDERED his power after the war.)?
Zinn’s book is shoddy history at best, meant to fool and manipulate the unthinking masses. I’d say its likely he had evil intent in writing this bucket of hogwash, trying to warp young minds.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Well this thread has convinced to read this book. I needed something to stimulate the old brain this summer. It sounds interesting, no matter how fucked up/accurate it is.
It’s an account of history from the masses point of view. Unlike the corporate elite viewpoints of most “history” books. It’s a fantastic read so far…
‘Corporate elite’? Hey, I think we’ve got a genuine marxist in our midst!
Marxism aside, with all the blatant errors and half-truths in this book, how is it anywhere in the ballpark, with regard to legitimate history? Its a shoddy ramble by a kook!
Here’s an example: Zinn claims that Washington was the wealthiest man at the time in America. Scholars almost universally say that Robert Morris of Pennsylvania was the wealthiest. Now, why would Zinn say what he did? Was it to somehow impugn Washington as a greedy prick, out for more power and money (Washington actually lost about half his net worth during the war, neglected his business, and NEVER took a leave of abscence in 8 years. He also SURRENDERED his power after the war.)?
Zinn’s book is shoddy history at best, meant to fool and manipulate the unthinking masses. I’d say its likely he had evil intent in writing this bucket of hogwash, trying to warp young minds.
HH
[/quote]
Great post. Although I kind of doubt Zinn had “evil intent”, he probably just believes his own BS.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Well this thread has convinced to read this book. I needed something to stimulate the old brain this summer. It sounds interesting, no matter how fucked up/accurate it is.
It’s an account of history from the masses point of view. Unlike the corporate elite viewpoints of most “history” books. It’s a fantastic read so far…[/quote]
You’re exactly right! It’s an awesome book. Fuck these facists. It only gets better the more you read. The chapter on Vietnam is my favorite. I had no idea that the country I proudly (and blindly) said allegence to every school morning since I was 5, is responsible for the genocide of over 3 million people. I never learned any of that shit in history class. Students in other countries do. Must be more marxist propaganda (jokes)
Question: why were there no more Arawaks around, when Colombus got to the Caribbean?
Weren’t most of them killed by storm troopers trying to distract the Empire while the rebels were brought down the Death Star?
Nope, the gentle and peaceful Caribs ATE them all, men, women, and children. I don’t defend Columbus’ treatment of them, but they were a bunch of goddamn cannibals. How would you treat someone who fought, not to kill you, but to disable you so you could be eaten alive?
There favorite way to do all of this was to tie a person to a pole and cut/tear off pieces of that person. Imagine being strung up, having someone cut off your right quad and eat it while you scream and watch. Then here comes another cannibal…
I think the world is better off without the ancestors of Hannibal the Cannibal.
HH
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Dirty blood thirsty savages!! I say we kill almost all of their people, rape their women, steal their children, steal their land, steal their possesions, ruin their food supply, destroy their culture forever, force them to commit mass suicide, use biological warfare in the form of smallpox on blankets, and then take the few survivors and force them and their decendents onto reservations that no one wants for centuries to come. Who’s with me!?! Oh wait it’s all already been done…
[quote]c/j wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Well this thread has convinced to read this book. I needed something to stimulate the old brain this summer. It sounds interesting, no matter how fucked up/accurate it is.
It’s an account of history from the masses point of view. Unlike the corporate elite viewpoints of most “history” books. It’s a fantastic read so far…
You’re exactly right! It’s an awesome book. Fuck these facists. It only gets better the more you read. The chapter on Vietnam is my favorite. I had no idea that the country I proudly (and blindly) said allegence to every school morning since I was 5, is responsible for the genocide of over 3 million people. I never learned any of that shit in history class. Students in other countries do. Must be more marxist propaganda (jokes) [/quote]
Yes this is facts. We taught this facts to all schoolchildren. But the actual numbers of noble, peaceful peepol of Vietman (sp?) was more like a billion, zillion people killed in the American genocide.
c/j wrote:
You’re exactly wrong! It’s an idiotic, dishonest book. Fuck these people who don’t believe in Marx, the father of the worst dictatorships EVER. It only gets worse the more you read. The chapter on the actual results of Marx’s ideas in action is my favorite. I had no idea that the country I and blindly) said allegence to every school morning (the USSR), is responsible for the democide of 65-75 million people. I never learned any of that shit in history class, since I didn’t go to history class, and I don’t read/comprehend too well.
Students in other countries learn all about the 2+ million EXECUTED for political crimes in Vietnam by the totalitarian state instituted by Ho Chi Minh. Not to mention the 2-4 million dead in the wars of conquest initiated by the good old Marxists in that same country. (To compare to the number killed by Americans, check out Death by Government by Rummel http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rummel/sod.chap6.html )
They also learn about the nightmarish rule of another great Marxist, Pol Pot! He managed to take a population of some 7 000 000 and whittle it on down to about 3 000 000 pure believers! THAT’S social progress for the working man, comrade!
Anyhoo, back to writing more marxist propaganda, which is what I graduated to when I realized that the Nazis were mere children when it came to political execution (jokes). Seriously though, the followers of Marx’s empirically, undeniably wrong manifesto are more despicable than believers in the theories of Mengele, since we can prove how many the great comrades MURDERED, and it dwarfs the Holocaust! Che rules!"
Anyhoo, back to writing more marxist propaganda, which is what I graduated to when I realized that the Nazis were mere children when it came to political execution (jokes). Seriously though, the followers of Marx’s empirically, undeniably wrong manifesto are more despicable than believers in the theories of Mengele, since we can prove how many the great comrades MURDERED, and it dwarfs the Holocaust! Che rules!"
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The Communist Manifesto is empirically and undeniably one of the best descriptions of Capitalism ever, how he then managed to draw all the wrong conclusions is beyond me…
Well, his prize theory was pretty stupid…
Marx saw more clearly than the capitalists of even today what capitalism really means as an economic foundation of a society, I think he was very, very, very afraid of change…
That makes him very human, but hardly an evil genius…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Well this thread has convinced to read this book. I needed something to stimulate the old brain this summer. It sounds interesting, no matter how fucked up/accurate it is.
It’s an account of history from the masses point of view. Unlike the corporate elite viewpoints of most “history” books. It’s a fantastic read so far…
‘Corporate elite’? Hey, I think we’ve got a genuine marxist in our midst!
Marxism aside, with all the blatant errors and half-truths in this book, how is it anywhere in the ballpark, with regard to legitimate history? Its a shoddy ramble by a kook!
Here’s an example: Zinn claims that Washington was the wealthiest man at the time in America. Scholars almost universally say that Robert Morris of Pennsylvania was the wealthiest. Now, why would Zinn say what he did? Was it to somehow impugn Washington as a greedy prick, out for more power and money (Washington actually lost about half his net worth during the war, neglected his business, and NEVER took a leave of abscence in 8 years. He also SURRENDERED his power after the war.)?
Zinn’s book is shoddy history at best, meant to fool and manipulate the unthinking masses. I’d say its likely he had evil intent in writing this bucket of hogwash, trying to warp young minds.
HH
[/quote]
Yes corporate elitist! They are real even if you don’t want to believe it.
You cite an example of a mistake that Zinn may or may not have made. In this case what difference does it really make if Washington was the second richest man? How does that take away from the book as a whole even if it is true? And why are the books you read true? Most hsitory books that are used in high school and college are funded by corporations. Like the corporate press it is their objectives that are served not the majority of people.
It was not Zinn’s intention to try and “fool” people but rather to give voice to those who are drowned out by the din of the elite. In fact it is actually the opposite of what you say! But it isn’t so surprising once you learn how the mass media use propaganda to serve the ends of thier paymasters.
Stop reading the writings on the wall by the corporate elite and look beyond their reach. It is here where you can find objectivity.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Most hsitory books that are used in high school and college are funded by corporations. Like the corporate press it is their objectives that are served not the majority of people.
[/quote]
LOL…do you actually believe this shit or are you just trying to push buttons?
Lets see…A People’s History of the United States, published by HarperCollins, which is owned by News Corporation, the CEO of which is…Rupert Murdoch.
[quote]orion wrote:
The Communist Manifesto is empirically and undeniably one of the best descriptions of Capitalism ever, how he then managed to draw all the wrong conclusions is beyond me…[/quote]
That’s nice. Marx over Adam Smith? OK… Oh, wait, I disagree! His tactic of defining “classes” and then interpereting EVERYTHING through the lens of class struggle is common among academics. You have an idea that might be applicable in certain cases and then try to apply that to everything you come across… it’s a great way to sell books.
I had a history professor that tried to view every event in medieval history through the lens of the rise of the university, and tie it all together. Like Marx, his premises and conclusions were interesting, may have applied in a few isolated cases, but were frankly in the long term WRONG and not applicable. Smith had people pegged a lot more reliably than Marx did.
I don’t think ‘stupid’ is the right word. My view is that Marx certainly meant well, and thought what he was doing was the right thing for a great many people. However, he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight like we do.
Unlike my history professor, Marx then called for violent revolution to implement his system. His system and all the attempts to implement it, whether in China or Russia or Cuba or Vietnam or East Germany or wherever, didn’t work as advertised. They led not to the proletariat paradise, but to an unimaginable bloodbath.
His disciples, in interpreting his writings, caused more terror than anything even unrestricted capitalism has ever done.
I haven’t the faintest idea what kind of guy he was. Frankly from what I can tell, I think he thought he was espousing a system that would work and would help. He believed this passionately. His followers believed this passionately.
We found out that he was wrong to the tune of 100+ million murdered. If you murder and lock up all the people that think the system stinks; try to plant the seeds in cultures as various as Slavic, Central Asian, Eastern European, SE Asian, Chinese, Latin American only to have democide, starvation, brutality, and privation result every time, reasonable people would probably conclude Marx was probably a bit off.
And should anyone decide to read the book, don’t check it out of the people’s library - make sure you purchase a new copy.
You see, Zinn, the chronicler of the oppressed masses, has three mortgages to pay, all in tony neighborhoods. Being a champion of the dispossessed and vulnerable doesn’t come on the cheap, you know - so make sure you do your part to line the pockets of the anti-capitalist who has more money and private property than you.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And should anyone decide to read the book, don’t check it out of the people’s library - make sure you purchase a new copy.
You see, Zinn, the chronicler of the oppressed masses, has three mortgages to pay, all in tony neighborhoods. Being a champion of the dispossessed and vulnerable doesn’t come on the cheap, you know - so make sure you do your part to line the pockets of the anti-capitalist who has more money and private property than you.[/quote]
Too late. I checked it out of the library yesterday.
Reading a few random passages had me rolling my eyes.
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Most hsitory books that are used in high school and college are funded by corporations. Like the corporate press it is their objectives that are served not the majority of people.
LOL…do you actually believe this shit or are you just trying to push buttons?
Lets see…A People’s History of the United States, published by HarperCollins, which is owned by News Corporation, the CEO of which is…Rupert Murdoch.
[/quote]
Yes I believe it. The better question is why don’t you?
Capitalists at times will distribute things which are counter to their objectives as long as money can be made from it and they are confident that few people will take the information seriously. A reason why Michael Moore’s stuff gets good distribution.
I will write a book on economic theory. I followed Marxist ideas, like Zinn, when I freed the oppressed masses of Kuwait in 1990, and attempted to free the oppressed masses of Iran prior to that. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!President Bush had to call me names and then slaughtered my desert lions to reinstitute a despotic, oppressive monarchy in Kuwait. Now look at that pathetic 3rd world country, Kuwait. HAH!
Zeppelin, you are very wise. You may be my next Minister of Intelligence after I regain control of my country. I’ll even give you a black beret, but you have to grow a thick, Arab-style mustache when you are old enough.