How Valuable is Life?

I’ve heard three opinions so far about my hypothetical junior high mandatory contraception program, including objections from two people who are on the pro-choice side of the aisle. Presumably, their objection stems from their abhorrence of the affront to personal liberty such a program would entail.

This echoes, I imagine the same objection to the affront to the liberty of the mother to control her body that forcing her to carry a fetus to term would involve. But the anti-abortion side has made it clear that they believe the life of a fetus trumps the liberty (if not necessarily the life) of the mother.

What about the liberty of the junior high school students involved in the contraception procedure? Do you (anti-abortion advocates) believe that the temporary sacrifice of the liberty of adolescents is an acceptable one if it would save the potential lives of millions of unborn babies who might otherwise be conceived and aborted?

Call it a preemptive strike to end abortion, much like preemptive bombing of a country who has the means to attack our own country, or preemptive herbicide attacks on coca and cannabis fields in order to prevent their products from reaching American streets.

I know most people in the antiabortion camp will say that the only way to ensure an end to teen pregnancy is simply convince teenagers not to have sex, which has never been accomplished in all of history. It reminds me of Nancy Reagan’s “Just Say No” campaign. How effective was that, again?

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
You are not following my line of thought. You are supposed to take the gist and not ponder if I know the difference between abortion and vasectomy. I had an abortion done some 15 years ago, by the way. After that I expect to hear why abortions should be banned, and above all the most important, why that will give the best societal solution. [/quote]

I am sorry for your loss.

I’d love to have a 15 year old kid; I want to be a dad so bad I don’t know.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
This is a followup to the running (and persistent) debate over abortion on the Planned Parenthood and Teen Pregnancy thread, and on a few others. I alluded to the question in passing, but I’d like to address it more fully here.

The presumption in the abortion debate is that a human fetus is just as alive and just as human–and therefore as valuable–as an infant, or a child, or an adult.

Let us agree that a fetus is alive. This is self-evident. If it were dead it would not grow. Let us also agree that it is human. It could not be otherwise. Human sperm and human eggs cannot combine to form anything other than a human embryo, which will inevitably become a human infant, unless the process is interrupted by biological, chemical or mechanical means.

So. No arguments so far, correct? A zygote, an embryo, a fetus and an infant are all equivalent in their being alive and human.

Let us for the moment sidestep issues of sentience or viability outside the womb. Let us assume that the living human embryo will, if not hindered from doing so, develop into a healthy baby.

Now, the question. Does this embryo have objective, inteinsic value, by virtue of its being alive and human?

We’ll also sidestep the fact that even a dead embryo or fetus has some value to scientific and medical science. Let’s confine the conversation to a living human organism. Is it a thing of value, and is its value determined by the fact that it is alive, or the fact that it is human?

How valuable is it, why is it valuable, and who decides?

The answers I’ve heard range from the tautological (“a human life is valuable because it’s a human life”) to the legalistic (“a human life is valuable because we all have the right to life”) to the religious (“a human life is valuable because we are created by God in his image”) to the non-argument (“it just is, and how can you even ask such a question?!”)

(Parenthetically, I hear the same arguments about money. Why is a US dollar valuable? It just is. The government tells us it is, and we believe it. But that’s another matter.)

I said on the other thread that everyone falls into a continuum of perception of the intrinsic value of life. On one end, we might find a person who believes that all life, from the lowest orders to the highest, is equivalent in value, and it is wrong to end the lives of any living thing, animal or vegetable. Far off on the other end, we have what we might term the sociopath or psychopath, who believes that only his own life is valuable.

In between we have those who think the lives of their family members are more valuable than the lives of others, that the lives of members of their own tribe or nation are more valuable than those of other tribes or nations, and those who believe that the lives of members of their own species are the only lives with any real value.

Understandably, we all fall on different points of the “perceived value of life” continuum, which is why I anticipate getting a range of different answers.

So tell me: is life intrinsically and objectively valuable, does some life have more value than other life, how valuable is life (in concrete terms: words like “priceless” or “precious” are meaningless), and why?
[/quote]

One human life is as valuable as another. You cannot make an argument that one human life is more or less valuable as another. So it then boils down to how much you value your life. If you value your life highly and you are a human being than you must value other human lives as much as your own since you are human and you hold the value of your own life highly.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Again, this is subjective and depends on the situation. In the field with wolves, my life is of extreme value to the wolves. It is after all nourishment for the pack.
[/quote]

No, your life is worth precisely nothing to the wolves. It is only your dead corpse that they value. Like the aforementioned cattle, you are worth infinitely more to them dead than alive.

[/quote]

Tomato, Tamato…[/quote]

No, more like tomato, carrot.

We value a tomato plant as long as it lives and keeps bearing fruit. A carrot is only useful to us when we pluck it from the ground and kill it.

We are discussing the value of the life inhabiting a human body, not the value of the body itself. Surely you believe that the life a human embryo contains is more valuable than the cells comprising its body, even though those cells might be very valuable to medical science. Correct?

[quote]pat wrote:
One human life is as valuable as another. You cannot make an argument that one human life is more or less valuable as another. So it then boils down to how much you value your life. If you value your life highly and you are a human being than you must value other human lives as much as your own since you are human and you hold the value of your own life highly. [/quote]

You are speaking of subjective value. I value my own life because I own it, just as I value anything else that I own. Whether anyone else values the things I own depends on their subjective sense of perceived value. And again, you are speaking in tautologies: we must value human life because we are human and human life must be valued.

But some of the most horrible atrocities have been committed by people who valued their own lives, or the lives of their tribe, extremely highly. More highly, in fact, than anything else in the world. It does not follow that ascribing high value to one’s own life presupposes high value ascribed to the life of another.

Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

I have talked with you many times before, 1-3 years ago. I assumed you had an idea whom you was talking to. That you would have a somewhat clear conception of my gender. Anyhow, sorry for the obfuscation. Just leave it out from the sentence.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

Definitely bonobo babies.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

Definitely bonobo babies.
[/quote]

Definitely.

We have enough of all other categories, except Bonobos.

They serve as a reminder that, even as primates, we do not have to be total dicks.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

Definitely bonobo babies.
[/quote]

Definitely.

We have enough of all other categories, except Bonobos.

They serve as a reminder that, even as primates, we do not have to be total dicks.

[/quote]

Okay, that settles it. I accept your proposal.

We shall have our honeymoon in the Congo, where we will adopt an orphan bonobo baby. Just like Angelina Jolie, sort of.

[quote]orion wrote:

We have enough of all other categories, except Bonobos.

They serve as a reminder that, even as primates, we do not have to be total dicks.

[/quote]

I was under the impression that Bonobo life is almost entirely and exclusively about dick.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

We have enough of all other categories, except Bonobos.

They serve as a reminder that, even as primates, we do not have to be total dicks.

[/quote]

I was under the impression that Bonobo life is almost entirely and exclusively about dick.[/quote]

Nope. They love the pussy too. Especially the girls.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

Definitely bonobo babies.
[/quote]

I know you’re going to be unhappy with me but I booked an African safari to hunt bonobos next year on my birthday. I will bring you a tenderloin.[/quote]

O_O

You are a monster.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

Definitely bonobo babies.
[/quote]

I know you’re going to be unhappy with me but I booked an African safari to hunt bonobos next year on my birthday. I will bring you a tenderloin.[/quote]

I’ll trade you for a braised 22-month old aborted fetus. Not much meat on the bones, but I hear it is delightfully similar to veal.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Oh Jesus guys. I wasn’t supposed to know the difference between vasectomy and abortion. I’m vasectomised, I 3 health adult kids, married 30 years and no abortions, we didn’t allow screening for down syndrome. Sorry to confuse you, it truly wasn’t my meaning.[/quote]

WTF?

First you tell us you had an abortion 15 years thereby causing anyone with the minimum intelligence of a fence post to assume you were a woman.

Now you tell us you’ve had a vasectomy and no abortions.

What are you? A man or woman?

Have you aborted a child? Do you think your aborted child, if indeed you did this, had any value? If you did not abort a child do you believe Finnish babies in the womb have value? How much? What about Swedish babies? Russian ones? Americans? Healthy babies? Sick babies?

Bonobo babies?[/quote]

Definitely bonobo babies.
[/quote]

I know you’re going to be unhappy with me but I booked an African safari to hunt bonobos next year on my birthday. I will bring you a tenderloin.[/quote]

O_O

You are a monster. [/quote]

Isn’t that like killing Bambi?