How Valuable is Life?

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

In rabbinic tradition, does ending the life of an unborn baby carry the same moral weight as ending the life of an infant? Is the fetus’ life, in other words, as valuable as the infant’s, and what is the reasoning behind the answer?
[/quote]

Well, a life is a life, and protecting life trumps all the other mitzvahs.

So a child in the womb is no more or less a life than a child outside the womb. No arbitrary distinction is made between a child in the womb and a child outside — that’s from English common law when a child was not considered “alive” until he or she took her first breath — and that is from the pagan practices related to lineage and succession.

Indeed, the only time abortion is permitted in Judaism is when the mother’s life is in mortal peril – and, at such time, the life of the mother is considered superior, I think largely because the death of the mother so often results in the death of the child. More of a triage decision than theological in my view, but it’s very clearly that way in the Talmud. (Indeed, in that circumstance abortion is mandated by Jewish law.)

So, I still ask my original question to your question:

Q: How valuable is a life?

A: To whom? G-d? The child? The father? The mother? Society at large? A purchaser of a slave? Who?[/quote]

I can’t speak for the Almighty, but if I were the creator of a universe, I would probably value my creations pretty highly, particularly the ones that most resembled myself. I am not saying that this is the actual case, only what I would do if it were me.

The parents of course would value the child more highly than anyone else would, and more than they value anyone else including themselves. Or at least perhaps they should. Often they don’t.

Society at large values the child relative to how they value his family. Later they will value him based on what he is able to contribute.

And actually, the purchaser of a slave is probably the most helpful of all in determining an objective value of life.

I will look through Leviticus and Deuteronomy later on, as I can’t recall any passages in the Torah that might give guidelines for a fair valuation of a pregnant female slave versus a non-pregnant one. I imagine that for obvious reasons a virgin slave girl would command a higher price than a girl or woman who was not a virgin, but it occurs to me that buying a pregnant woman would be like getting two slaves in one. Surely the one should expect to pay more for a mother and her infant child than for a pregnant woman, but just how much more should indicate the perceived value of a born vs an unborn life.

If only we knew what percentage one buying a pregnant slave might expect to pay above the price of a non-pregnant slave (and below the price of a mother and her infant) of equivalent age, health, status and sexual history. Then we would know, in monetary terms at least, the approximate value of the life in the womb, at least as perceived by the ancients.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Are you comfortable with utter nihilism?[/quote]

Not at all.

But, if utter nihilism is “the truth,” then I respect it as such over any of its competitors. Harsh truth over happy fiction and all that.

But I don’t think it is. I’m not an atheist.

Edit: not that I would have any justification for respecting “the truth” over lies if “the truth” involved the proposition that nothing matters, including the truth.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

In rabbinic tradition, does ending the life of an unborn baby carry the same moral weight as ending the life of an infant? Is the fetus’ life, in other words, as valuable as the infant’s, and what is the reasoning behind the answer?
[/quote]

Well, a life is a life, and protecting life trumps all the other mitzvahs.

So a child in the womb is no more or less a life than a child outside the womb. No arbitrary distinction is made between a child in the womb and a child outside — that’s from English common law when a child was not considered “alive” until he or she took her first breath — and that is from the pagan practices related to lineage and succession.

Indeed, the only time abortion is permitted in Judaism is when the mother’s life is in mortal peril – and, at such time, the life of the mother is considered superior, I think largely because the death of the mother so often results in the death of the child. More of a triage decision than theological in my view, but it’s very clearly that way in the Talmud. (Indeed, in that circumstance abortion is mandated by Jewish law.)

So, I still ask my original question to your question:

Q: How valuable is a life?

A: To whom? G-d? The child? The father? The mother? Society at large? A purchaser of a slave? Who?[/quote]

I can’t speak for the Almighty, but if I were the creator of a universe, I would probably value my creations pretty highly, particularly the ones that most resembled myself. I am not saying that this is the actual case, only what I would do if it were me.

The parents of course would value the child more highly than anyone else would, and more than they value anyone else including themselves. Or at least perhaps they should. Often they don’t.

Society at large values the child relative to how they value his family. Later they will value him based on what he is able to contribute.

And actually, the purchaser of a slave is probably the most helpful of all in determining an objective value of life.

I will look through Leviticus and Deuteronomy later on, as I can’t recall any passages in the Torah that might give guidelines for a fair valuation of a pregnant female slave versus a non-pregnant one. I imagine that for obvious reasons a virgin slave girl would command a higher price than a girl or woman who was not a virgin, but it occurs to me that buying a pregnant woman would be like getting two slaves in one. Surely the one should expect to pay more for a mother and her infant child than for a pregnant woman, but just how much more should indicate the perceived value of a born vs an unborn life.

If only we knew what percentage one buying a pregnant slave might expect to pay above the price of a non-pregnant slave (and below the price of a mother and her infant) of equivalent age, health, status and sexual history. Then we would know, in monetary terms at least, the approximate value of the life in the womb, at least as perceived by the ancients.
[/quote]

The verses you seek are Ex 21:20-25.
If a man strikes a pregnant slave, and there is a miscarriage, the man is subject to restittuion determined by judges. But if “there is a fatality” (i.e., a fatality of the woman, noting that the miscarried fetus is not of value here), the restitution is equal to a life. “A life for a life.”

Some points: the value of a life is not specified, but the value of a traumatically miscarried fetus is, a posteriori, less than that of a pregnant woman.

Not so fast: JB is absolutely correct that abortion is allowed when the life of the woman is mortally threatened. But it is not because of the logical outcome of the passage cited above. Nor is it permissible to perform an abortion simply because the fetus has no value (“like water”) before the 40th day of conception (by Talmud). The general rule of the impermissibility of abortion arises from the Noahide laws, which apply no less to Jews than to righteous non-Jews.

Last, abortion is mandated–not just permitted–when the mother’s life is imperiled. Here again, it is not a question of intrinsic value, but a principle of Maimonides that the “pursuer” (“rodef”–the pursuer with the intent to kill) may first be killed to save a life. This is made up de novo by Maimonides, but was fully adopted by the 16th century (Shulhan Arukh).

So what is the value of a life? Life is an object of speculative value–but only in the context of damages. In the Old Testament, a slave is given a value because of the services he or she would provide. But there is no price placed on a human life since it is not the province of man to place a calculated value upon it.

I kind of get the impression that abortion should be a democratic process :slight_smile:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think the “value” of a life is completely subjective. For example, a female in Afghanistan who is an illiterate Muslim and will never amount to anything other than raising some terrorists to hate Jews and America, then I feel that life is worth SIGNIFICANTLY less than that of a person raised with values of tolerance and passed those values on to their children. Is the “life” in question “worth” living? Do they move the world in a positive direction or a negative direction? The world would be a better place if the former were to be killed in a drone strike vs. the latter.

I’d like to drill down on the concept of “stewardship” that JB brought up because I feel that’s a VERY significant aspect of value, as it will strongly contribute to that person’s potential. If one is born into a family of loving people with good judgement, than I feel that life is worth more than if one is born into a life of a 16 year old single mother who can’t fend for herself, much less a child. All things being equal, the child born into the family has a life of FAR greater potential, and hence, more value, than that of the child born into the single mother scenario. I’m sure that argument would be, “but it’s not the BABY’S fault where it’s born”. And while I agree that it’s no one’s FAULT, we are determining VALUE, here - not assigning responsibility. Life isn’t fair. And there are of course exceptions.

I also believe that life becomes more valuable the longer it has been invested in. So an unborn fetus, in my book is FAR less valuable than a three year old who has parents that have invested in him. Because, let’s face it, a fetus doesn’t really have a life. I doesn’t even know what life is. A COW has more awareness than a fetus and we kill cows all day long. Like several people pointed out in the other abortion thread, when the woman has a miscarriage after three months, it’s a FAR LESS traumatic experience than if it died during delivery at nine months. Why? Because it had less potential and not as much was invested.

I would also bring up the point of economics. Supply and demand. The Greater the supply, the less the value. And humans are multiplying at a pretty fucking unsustainable rate. I was born in 1974. In MY LIFETIME, the human population has DOUBLED. See the attached chart. For nearly all of human history there were less than 500 million humans on the planet. Then, in the 1700’s, humans begin multiplying EXPONENTIALLY. In a hundred years there wont be enough resources on the planet to feed everyone. Assuming we make it that far with out a Malthusian event.

Think about the future where instead of 8 Billion people, there are 35 Billion people. That’s where we are headed. China’s “one child policy” is just the beginning. If the world population continues to skyrocket the way it is currently trending, I assure you a few abortions will the the LAST thing people are worried about. It will be forced sterilization for the “have nots” coupled with some kind of “culling” of the herd. Sounds kind of “Biblical”, doesn’t it? There is simply no way this will NOT happen in a hundred years. Human life will be worth LESS than nothing at that point. So all the arguing about “every life is sacred” is kind of juvenile and only serves to move the planet FASTER toward a time when “every life is expendable”. I do not look forward to those times and I am preparing MY children accordingly.

Speaking of MY children, I hold their lives to have more value than any of yours. Not trying to be a dick by writing that, but it’s true. I value MY offspring over just about anything else. And I’m sure if you are honest, every one of you who is a parent will agree with me. Call me a selfish asshole if you want. I’m just keeping it real.[/quote]

Wow…good words AC! I wish I could articulate my thoughts like this.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

In rabbinic tradition, does ending the life of an unborn baby carry the same moral weight as ending the life of an infant? Is the fetus’ life, in other words, as valuable as the infant’s, and what is the reasoning behind the answer?
[/quote]

Well, a life is a life, and protecting life trumps all the other mitzvahs.

So a child in the womb is no more or less a life than a child outside the womb. No arbitrary distinction is made between a child in the womb and a child outside — that’s from English common law when a child was not considered “alive” until he or she took her first breath — and that is from the pagan practices related to lineage and succession.

Indeed, the only time abortion is permitted in Judaism is when the mother’s life is in mortal peril – and, at such time, the life of the mother is considered superior, I think largely because the death of the mother so often results in the death of the child. More of a triage decision than theological in my view, but it’s very clearly that way in the Talmud. (Indeed, in that circumstance abortion is mandated by Jewish law.)

So, I still ask my original question to your question:

Q: How valuable is a life?

A: To whom? G-d? The child? The father? The mother? Society at large? A purchaser of a slave? Who?[/quote]

I can’t speak for the Almighty, but if I were the creator of a universe, I would probably value my creations pretty highly, particularly the ones that most resembled myself. I am not saying that this is the actual case, only what I would do if it were me.

The parents of course would value the child more highly than anyone else would, and more than they value anyone else including themselves. Or at least perhaps they should. Often they don’t.

Society at large values the child relative to how they value his family. Later they will value him based on what he is able to contribute.

And actually, the purchaser of a slave is probably the most helpful of all in determining an objective value of life.

I will look through Leviticus and Deuteronomy later on, as I can’t recall any passages in the Torah that might give guidelines for a fair valuation of a pregnant female slave versus a non-pregnant one. I imagine that for obvious reasons a virgin slave girl would command a higher price than a girl or woman who was not a virgin, but it occurs to me that buying a pregnant woman would be like getting two slaves in one. Surely the one should expect to pay more for a mother and her infant child than for a pregnant woman, but just how much more should indicate the perceived value of a born vs an unborn life.

If only we knew what percentage one buying a pregnant slave might expect to pay above the price of a non-pregnant slave (and below the price of a mother and her infant) of equivalent age, health, status and sexual history. Then we would know, in monetary terms at least, the approximate value of the life in the womb, at least as perceived by the ancients.
[/quote]

The verses you seek are Ex 21:20-25.
If a man strikes a pregnant slave, and there is a miscarriage, the man is subject to restittuion determined by judges. But if “there is a fatality” (i.e., a fatality of the woman, noting that the miscarried fetus is not of value here), the restitution is equal to a life. “A life for a life.”

Some points: the value of a life is not specified, but the value of a traumatically miscarried fetus is, a posteriori, less than that of a pregnant woman.

Not so fast: JB is absolutely correct that abortion is allowed when the life of the woman is mortally threatened. But it is not because of the logical outcome of the passage cited above. Nor is it permissible to perform an abortion simply because the fetus has no value (“like water”) before the 40th day of conception (by Talmud). The general rule of the impermissibility of abortion arises from the Noahide laws, which apply no less to Jews than to righteous non-Jews.

Last, abortion is mandated–not just permitted–when the mother’s life is imperiled. Here again, it is not a question of intrinsic value, but a principle of Maimonides that the “pursuer” (“rodef”–the pursuer with the intent to kill) may first be killed to save a life. This is made up de novo by Maimonides, but was fully adopted by the 16th century (Shulhan Arukh).

So what is the value of a life? Life is an object of speculative value–but only in the context of damages. In the Old Testament, a slave is given a value because of the services he or she would provide. But there is no price placed on a human life since it is not the province of man to place a calculated value upon it.
[/quote]

After posting to Jewbacca, I did read that passage in Exodus. You explained it very well.

And do not imagine that I am trying to use scripture to justify abortion. This is not my purpose at all.

I like the fact that I had just read that very passage of Maimonedes and learned the word rodef just this afternoon, in anticipation of…I thought, Jewbacca’s reply, but I should have known it would be you. Thanks, Doc.

nvm, not gonna feed the troll.

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
nvm, not gonna feed the troll.[/quote]

Which troll did you decide not to feed? Karado or Opeth?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
I do not really know what to make of this but I think it belongs here:

Dont know where I picked this up, but I believe it to be true that almost all genocides begin with a process of declaring your future victims to be less then human.

Basically, there is a process of increasingly malignant and violent “othering”.

Now, I am somewhat reluctantly pro choice, but I am seriously wondering whether it is not true that declaring that embryos before a certain stage are not “human” or “persons” is a form of exactly that mechanism.

[/quote]

You have yourself one of them there “dilemmas.”[/quote]

No, I have one of them there pitfalls of the human mind you should be aware of even if being pro choice.

[/quote]

If you choose to replace “dilemma” with “pitfall” and do it with a straight face…well…alrighty then, you have fun with that.[/quote]

There is no dilemma there, because while I do recognize the tendency of human beings to dehumanize other human beings they want to kill, an argument can be made that a fertilized egg is less than a human being.

I do not think that you fall into this trap if you are ok with these oral abortificients.

On the other hand are partial birth abortions where indeed a baby is killed.

If you support that you have jumped into this pit head first.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Are…[/quote]

I disagree.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Are you comfortable with utter nihilism?[/quote]

Not at all.

But, if utter nihilism is “the truth,” then I respect it as such over any of its competitors. Harsh truth over happy fiction and all that.

But I don’t think it is. I’m not an atheist.

Edit: not that I would have any justification for respecting “the truth” over lies if “the truth” involved the proposition that nothing matters, including the truth.[/quote]

Fair enough.

At this point we could go down the oft trod religious/origins trail if we so chose because I believe the lack of acceptance of nihilism inevitably and inexorably funnels one toward the God of the Bible; I simply don’t think there’s another logical choice.

Nonetheless we’ve done it plenty of times and I’m not sure I have the patience and the time right now to beat that horse some more. I’m on the road – going, going, going like mad and don’t really want to do it.[/quote]

Fair enough. Indeed we did the religious thing fairly recently.

But yes, I do agree with most of the theist criticisms of atheism.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Again, this is subjective and depends on the situation. In the field with wolves, my life is of extreme value to the wolves. It is after all nourishment for the pack.
[/quote]

No, your life is worth precisely nothing to the wolves. It is only your dead corpse that they value. Like the aforementioned cattle, you are worth infinitely more to them dead than alive.

[/quote]

Tomato, Tamato…

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Are…[/quote]

I disagree.[/quote]

So do I. That’s right, in that regard I disagree with myself. And you. And everyone else.[/quote]

It depends on what your definitions of “are” are.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Are…[/quote]

I disagree.[/quote]

So do I. That’s right, in that regard I disagree with myself. And you. And everyone else.[/quote]

It depends on what your definitions of “are” are. [/quote]

I disagree.[/quote]