[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
First of all, when did I ever say that I thought they were fighting for freedom? When did I say that they are fighting against oppression? You need to read what I write. I didn’t think it would be so much of a problem being as that was relatively short…
So - are the terrorists fighting against oppression in your view or not?
But I am not for the US doing it because I do not believe that we get a rat’s ass about spreading democracy. Democracy itself is a work in progress, a work that is not complete in this country. How can we spread to others what we haven’t done ourselves?
What is this nonsense? Because we haven’t ‘perfected’ democracy, we cannot champion it? By the way, there is no perfection.
We topple a government, nowadays we have an obligation to put something in its place other than scorched earth. Democracy - the best viable government we have come up with - is the best option. As a practical matter, this makes the most sense.
Muslims have been around for quite a while…far longer than this country. But miraculously, we never had a problem with them for the first two hundred years after our inception. Why is that? If they had a jihad against us for the last three hundred years based on “American values”, then it would be a different case.
When was it that America began having problems with Muslims?
Specifically 25 years ago when Islamist radicals raised their head in Iran.
And, later, you answer your own question - the existence of Israel has pitched Arab nations into sustained conflict with Western countries ever since Arab pride was humiliated by the internationally recognized presence of Jews in the Holy Land.
That has magnified what has essentially become a ‘values’ war.
When did Muslims get the idea that we were against them? 9/11 was the result of American support for Israel.
Ok, I have no objection to this - so what? Why not support Israel, the only democratic, pro-Western nation in all of the Middle East?
As long as the Israelis have been fighting the Arabs, it has been American guns with American bullets killing there people. Bin Laden said it himself; he got the idea for using planes after watching the war in Lebanon (I think in 1982).
Yes, but your great failure is that you won’t assign rightness or wrongness to the behavior. If American bulltets are killing Arab soldiers, ask yourself: is the shooting justified? I know why OBL and the other Islamists do the things they do, but I think they are dead wrong. Arab nations have been trying to bully Israel for years and most of their anguish stems from getting repeatedly humiliated by such a small country (ask Egypt).
I don’t doubt Islamists are pissed because of our support for Israel - but are they wrong for doing so? I say yes - but then, I am no relativist.
They are seperated from us by thousands of miles. They certainly don’t have the capability to interject themselves into our affairs. So where was the run in that led to 9/11? Was it them who provoked us? Or did we provoke them into planning such an intricate attack, and then carrying it out?
A better question - is the provocation you suggest justified? If not - then talk of provocation is meaningless.
Most Leftists think the ‘provocation’ is justified, because they adhere to ideas that Western influence or power is bad and capitalism is bad. Striking back at all these ‘bad’ things is good, so they are sympathetic to the Islamists.
My point has always been “how can Leftists be sympathetic to the cause of Islamists when they aren’t fighting for freedom from oppression?” Leftists have spilled an awful lot of ink claiming that they stand against oppression of any kind. Why then the sympathy? Why all the equivocating?
And perhaps you aren’t sympathetic - but let’s face it, many Leftists are. Many would rather see Islamism succeed just so it means that Bush can fail.
My other point is simple - the Islamism we see now is not the result of a ‘reaction’ to Western imperialism. It is the result of self-inflicted cultural wounds, religious humiliation, and the type of pathology groups get when constantly confronted with their own inferiority in the face of modernity.
They hate Israel - a country perhaps not with a perfect track record but with every conceivable international right to exist where it does in the world. Arab aggression against Israel is unjustified and the presence of Israel is a mere scapegoat for other problems. The Palestinian problem is only of recent vintage - only recently did Arab countries worry about their ‘brothers’ being oppressed in Palestine - only when it became useful leverage against mean ole Israel.
I only parrot your quote because it is the propaganda that is used against the left forever, and its run is getting tired.
Propaganda? Then refute it, rather than wimping out with name-calling.
Propaganda? Another lazy escape-hatch.
I hold no illusions about why they are fighting us over there. I do not believe they are right, as I said before, I am against theocracies all over the world. But it was not our job to go there and start this war. It is not our job to make sure that they are safe. It is not our job to fight their revolutions for them.
We ended a war that was already being waged over a 13 years period. The recent war in Iraq was not an original move.
[/quote]
I don’t believe in support for Israel. I don’t think the nation should have been created, I don’t agree that we should support them at our own tremendous expense, and I think they are a belligerent nation that would rather start another world war than work with the people they are fighting.
I don’t have a high opinion of the Arabs either. I understand why they are fighting, but I don’t think we should support them either. I see no reason for America to arm and support Israel like we do when it leads to transgressions like 9/11.
I don’t support militant Islam at all. I think that anyone who is so enamored with any religion should not have power over the masses whatsoever, as religion mixed with power is a dangerous mix.
You are thinking far too linear by saying that since American imperialism is bad, than Islamic radicals who strike at it are good. No leftist was happy when 9/11 happened. There were far too many people who were just trying to make a life for themselves and their families for any attack on them to be warranted. In fact, all anarchists and socialists immediately condemned it. So don’t let this garbage about how we “sympathize with Islam” influence your thoughts. Because I don’t think any do.
However, the fact remains that now there are people who otherwise would not have been “terrorists” or “jihadists” who are now joining that cause because they think that the Iraq war is all about imperialism, and would rather see Muslims run the country than us. Which to me is understandable, as they should have the right to sort out their own affairs. It doesn’t matter to me how many of each other they kill trying to figure that out.
And that spiel about how this has been a 13 year war is pure bullshit. That war was over. George II started another seperate endeavor. This is your opinion, that is fine. But don’t even argue that with me because that will go nowhere.