I’m 39 with a testosterone in the 300s and looking to get some help with weightlifting since I’ve lost muscle and strength lately.
My test is low enough and I’m old enough where my doctor is willing to try it out. I really don’t want to take injectibles and first try gel or creams.
How do I take Androgel or Testim and which is better? I heard creams are better than gels so we can get Androgel/Testim in cream form?
Don’t I take it for 4 days and then stop for 3days or 5 days on and 2 days off?
I’m just under 6’4" and 230 lbs. so I was thinking 10 grams Androgel would be best.
Androgel and Testim are testosterone dissolved in alcohol gels, 1%. They are very expensive, for you or for insurance. These have the highest ability to create estrogen as large areas of skin are T saturated and T–>E aromatization occurs there.
T creams, 5%-20% are applied to smaller areas which reduces T–>E compared to 1% gels. These products are made by compounding pharmacies and are much less costly than gels.
T injections are least cost and 100% effective at delivery of testosterone. At best, absorption for transdermals is 10%, the rest is lost. If you have thyroid problems, you might not be able to absorb transdermals at all. Injected T is T esters in oil. Adding ester groups to T makes is oil soluble. After injection as the oil is absorbed, a few different processes in the body remove the ester groups, yielding bio-identical testosterone. Injections can create steady levels with small frequent injections. Some clown doctors are medieval in their understandings and think that injecting every two weeks is good - NOT. Few docs understand injecting frequently, they just do not understand because they do not understand deductive reasoning.
“Androgel/Testim in cream form” displays a complete lack of understanding. I am not trying to run you down, but you probably will need to do a lot of study and will know more about these things than most doctors.
Your doc is willing to ‘try it out’… OMG. You really need to read the ‘protocol for injections’ sticky and understand the basics. Read some of the other ‘estrogen’ sticky.
Testim is a drug name not a company. Testim is made by Auxilium Pharmaceuticals.
Hormone creams are made up by compounding pharmacies to whatever your doctor prescribes. Compounding pharmacies are located all across the country. However, they work with doctors that are not local and ship anywhere. The products arrive by mail. One typically does not ever go to a compounding pharmacy.
Hormone creams are made up for testosterone, pregnenolone, progesterone, estradiol, estriol, DHEA or combinations. For men, T creams are 5% to 20% weight by volume.
T cream can be applied to the scrotum [clip the hair short] which absorbs well and increases DHT levels. This can be done in combo with injections. T-gels are quite effective in boosting DHT levels because of the large skin areas involved.
injections, lowest DHT, lowest E if injecting EOD, lowest cost if self injecting, inject T and need to inject hCG, absolute delivery
T-gels, highest DHT, highest E, highest cost, need to inject hCG, some will not absorb well or at all
T-cream, moderate DHT, moderate E, moderate cost, need to inject hCG, some will not absorb well or at all
pellets, similar to EOD injection, expensive, surgical procedure, levels swing over span of a few months making optimal anastrozole dosing difficult.
patches, very expensive, lower E and DHT than other transdermals, some get skin rashes and must discontinue, still need to inject hCG, some will not absorb well or at all
One needs to self inject hCG which negates the basic appeal of transdermals. Doctors are brainwashed by drug reps. The most expensive [read profitable] drugs drive the most drug rep activity. Some docs like office injections and pellets as they can increase their cash flows. I think that the development of the T-gels/patches were driven by the prospect of huge profits, not improved patient outcomes.
Transdermals are not a good choice for those who sweat and/or shower a lot. That affects those who train or exercise or work outdoors in the summer or in a hot environment. Not been able to absorb transdermals seems to be the rule for those with [subclinical] hypothyroidism. Non absorption is a symptom of hypothyroidism can be be one of the diagnostic symptoms or initiating diagnostics.
Transdermals can transfer to others. If a man applies to his arms and plays with the kids or grandchildren there is a real risk of harm. [Some incidental transfer to one’s GF or wife is probably harmless and can be beneficial.]
Injectables are dirt cheap so there is no cash driving drug reps to educate doctors about optimal injection protocols. Injectables can be the best or worse, depending on how often one injects.
In any case, one will want to control E with adex.
I’m 39 with a testosterone in the 300s and looking to get some help with weightlifting since I’ve lost muscle and strength lately.
My test is low enough and I’m old enough where my doctor is willing to try it out. I really don’t want to take injectibles and first try gel or creams.
How do I take Androgel or Testim and which is better? I heard creams are better than gels so we can get Androgel/Testim in cream form?
Don’t I take it for 4 days and then stop for 3days or 5 days on and 2 days off?
I’m just under 6’4" and 230 lbs. so I was thinking 10 grams Androgel would be best.
Thanks for all your help and HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!
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Why would someone stop taking it for any amount of days? Androgel is taken everyday. I’ve been using 7.5 to 10 grams for 8 years.
And it’s not supposed to be used clinically for “tryouts”. It’s a medicine used for a condition - hypogonadism.
sorry but I got to say it,
KSman you got some vested interest in steering guys to T injections,i’m certain of it.
what you work for major pharaceutical firm that makes the stuff?
every thread or post on the subject of HRT, there you are quickly jumping in with same old line that all other methods, gels,pellets are all useless and only effective therapy is injectable T.
I do not care for these new T delivery systems that simply create huge increases in costs with no improvement in benefits. Yes, these newer delivery systems have research that shows better results, but they all use T injections that are given every two weeks. When I is injected optimally, those superior results vanish.
I have no financial interests at all. My approach is consistent with engineering cost benefit and least cost.
BTW, no one makes money selling injectable T, there is no money in it and the profits are not sufficient to drive intense marketing or detailing to doctors.
Transdermal T may have some advantages of diurnal patterns and higher DHT levels.
For those with no insurance or high deductibles, injections are the only affordable option if costs are an issue. When one has insurance, costs are not an issue. These new delivery systems are expensive and highly profitable and the motive is to place these new products where they can tap into the revenue stream of medical insurance. Medicine is about making money, not value or relative benefit.
well i’m in a typical HMO plan, nothing special, when i started androgel my T was 174 few months later now and i’m at 550, feeling much better, but i still want to get up to around 700-800. so i’m coaxing my Dr to write stronger script.
as for the cost, it came with a discount card and i’m shocked at how little i’ve had to pay. first time copay was $3, then last 2 times $0
my only dislike is the daily gel application routine, it’s easy but you just get tired each morning like drudery.
my Dr says pellets are once every 6 months, so thats what i’m working on next.
The thing I don’t understand about KSman’s posts is his disregard for people who do fine with Androgel - like myself. As I’ve said so many times in this forum, I’ve been using Androgel for 8 years with almost no problems! I’ve never had problems with elevated estrogen. The only undesirable thing I have is low normal and sometimes slightly less than normal LH and FSH, but that is the reason I take Androgel - I have idiopathic secondary hypogonadism.
I’ve only had SLIGHT testicular atrophy. My T level has consistently been 700 to 1000 for all these years using Androgel, and I feel great; it can be that my recovery ability is better because of all these years of training, but I sometimes feel like I’m better off than before I even had the problem of hypogonadism.
There was only one occasion in which a problem occurred; my T level reached 1500 ng/dL with my usual daily dose of 10 grams of gel - an abnormally high level. I had gone far too long between visits (I’m supposed to see him once every 6 months and that time I foolishly went almost a year without seeing him) and was compelled to see him because I had acquired acne on my lower back, my temperament was becoming highly explosive and emotive, and gains in the gym were coming just a bit too easy.
I did have testicular atrophy when I saw him that time. He put me on HALF a tab of Clomid a day for a month. My LH and FSH levels returned to normal and I gained some testicular size back.
That’s the ONLY real problem I encountered in 8 years of use, and it was partially because of my negligence!
That just goes to show why I can’t understand why KSman says it’s not effective. If it weren’t effective in absorption, how the heck would my level reach 1,500 ng/dl?
I don’t understand the talk of transfer to children or a partner. Granted, it can happen, but it’s not like 10 grams of gel is flying all over the place when applying it. The stuff rubs in like hand sanitizer; it takes no longer than 1 minute to apply 5 grams of gel to an arm and shoulder, and it dries VERY quickly. You put on your clothing, and that’s it.
I apply it before I go to sleep, so I have no problems with transfer, sweat, showering, or swimming. Anyway, on occasion, one can shower, swim, or exercise an hour after applying it; 3 hours is recommended.
For those who have insurance, the gel isn’t expensive. It’s 25 bucks per month.
T-gels are expensive and yes, some are sheltered from those costs… but someone is paying -your employer?. Health insurance costs are becoming unsustainable and costs to employees are becoming higher. You are contributing to these costs by your health care choices.
If you did not have insurance, your attitude would change and your “facts” would change too.
Yes, some respond well. Some do not. Just the facts. Some cannot use gels because of sweating, swimming and showering, basic resistance or resistance from hypothyroidism. Some suffer stinging and rashes.
There should not be any expectation of any useful LH levels when on effective TRT.
Nothing that you said does not alter the fact that your outcome could be just as good with frequent self injections at a vastly lower medical cost. You do need hCG and that needs to be injected. If you inject hCG, what is the reason then for not injecting T? Without hCG you have a drug induced reduction in pregnenolone levels and potential for loss of fertility.
T-gels drive high profits and that fuels intense marketing to doctors. Doctors are prescribing T-gels and think that that is all that is required. Drug reps do not want to tell docs the complete story - T+hCG+AI
T-gel is a delivery system that deposits T on the skin. When the gel dries the T is on the skin. Drying in no way implies that it cannot transfer to others via contact.
Clomid is the worst SERM and your and your doc do not know any better.
It works for you. Someone has to fill in the rest of the facts. Remember that only 10% is absorbed at best, the rest is lost [part of the high cost]. As a delivery system, the bio-availability is 0 t0 10%. Injections are 100% after the body removes the ester groups from the T ester yielding bio-identical T. There is never any doubt about delivery with injections.
Many switch from gels to injections and prefer that. In many cases, not because of costs.
dude what the heck you talking aoubt? first you go on about high cost of gel, then when 2 members post their own low cost experience, you talk about true cost passed down the line contributing to overall , well yeah the system works like that, but we all know that’s not what we’re talking about.
i’ts expensive for those who don’t have insurance, well duh again that’s the system we have, a flu shotis expensive if you don’t have a plan.
truth is all the different delivery methods have pluses and minuses.
you put the gel on shoulders, traps and stomach , is the average person gonna be touching those areas? I put mine on morning before work, so at night it’s fully absorbed so no risk of transfer to my wife. isit daily drudery ? yes for me. but still better in my eyes than weekly trips to Dr office for shots. most Drs won’t give syringes to take home for self shots. also there is the chance of needle infection, shoot it in wrong place, air bubble.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
There was only one occasion in which a problem occurred; my T level reached 1500 ng/dL with my usual daily dose of 10 grams of gel - an abnormally high level. I had gone far too long between visits (I’m supposed to see him once every 6 months and that time I foolishly went almost a year without seeing him) and was compelled to see him because I had acquired acne on my lower back, my temperament was becoming highly explosive and emotive, and gains in the gym were coming just a bit too easy.
[/quote]
i’d totally like to experience this.
Bricknyce, you put yours on at bedtime? thought morning was preferred recommended time?
It’s the recommended time, but I’ve seen no difference in quality of life between the two application times. In the winter time, putting it on in the morning would be fine for me because I go to work in the morning, and I don’t sweat much. In the summer time, putting it on in the morning isn’t an option because I go to the beach, park, or gym on weekends and sweat pretty easily in the intense heat just walking to my car or around a stuffy healthcare environment where I work.
Daily application of the gel keeps T levels steady, regardless of time of application.
KSman, thanks for the reply. Disclaimer: I have no intention to argue with you. I was just honestly curious as to why no one gives credit to Androgel or Testim. I’ve been educated, through literature and my urologist-androligist, that gels were created to do away with the widely fluctuating hormone levels that men experience with injections - T and E levels all over the place, and sometimes at supraphysiological levels. I may very well be wrong, but I don’t believe the creation of gels and creams was solely for the benefit of big pharma.
I never looked at purchasing medical insurance as contributing to some corrupt system. Granted, our healthcare system is a disaster. But I buy insurance because I need it and have always sought a job that pays for some or most of it. That’s it! Not just because of my condition, but also because of the chance of disasters, accidents, and illness. Hospital visits are ASTRO-FUCKING-NOMICAL for those that have to pay out-of-pocket. And–I’m being blatantly judgmental here–people who have the money to invest in 800- to 1000-dollar computers to log onto T-mag, 4000+ calorie diets, supplements, and 60- to 100-dollar gym memberships, but neglect shelling out the dough or seeking a job that offers benefits, are foolish, ignorant, or don’t have their priorities in order!
Granted, some people are unemployed and/or poor and can’t afford much of anything beyond bare necessities to survive. But I’m not referring to them. I’m referring to ordinary, middle-class people. For people to be able to date women, have a wife or girlfriend and a social life, and invest in all things to get in shape, and NOT invest in health insurance is BAD! What if an accident or illness occurs? Disasters have driven people into bankruptcy and has fleeced their savings.
[quote]KSman wrote:
T-gels are expensive and yes, some are sheltered from those costs… but someone is paying -your employer?. Health insurance costs are becoming unsustainable and costs to employees are becoming higher. You are contributing to these costs by your health care choices.
If you did not have insurance, your attitude would change and your “facts” would change too.
Yes, some respond well. Some do not. Just the facts. Some cannot use gels because of sweating, swimming and showering, basic resistance or resistance from hypothyroidism. Some suffer stinging and rashes.
There should not be any expectation of any useful LH levels when on effective TRT.
Nothing that you said does not alter the fact that your outcome could be just as good with frequent self injections at a vastly lower medical cost. You do need hCG and that needs to be injected. If you inject hCG, what is the reason then for not injecting T? Without hCG you have a drug induced reduction in pregnenolone levels and potential for loss of fertility.
T-gels drive high profits and that fuels intense marketing to doctors. Doctors are prescribing T-gels and think that that is all that is required. Drug reps do not want to tell docs the complete story - T+hCG+AI
T-gel is a delivery system that deposits T on the skin. When the gel dries the T is on the skin. Drying in no way implies that it cannot transfer to others via contact.
Clomid is the worst SERM and your and your doc do not know any better.
It works for you. Someone has to fill in the rest of the facts. Remember that only 10% is absorbed at best, the rest is lost [part of the high cost]. As a delivery system, the bio-availability is 0 t0 10%. Injections are 100% after the body removes the ester groups from the T ester yielding bio-identical T. There is never any doubt about delivery with injections.
Many switch from gels to injections and prefer that. In many cases, not because of costs.
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If Clomid was so bad, it wouldn’t have increased my T level from 240 to 790 while using half a tab the first month I used it.
Clomid has terrible side effects for many. Use Nolvadex, it is better than clomid. SERMs are estrogens as chemicals and clomid can make some guys cry watching chick flicks. Clomid is a very poor choice. Can is increase LH, yes, but that is not the point. Other things do a better overall job.
EOD injections with insulin needles provide very steady T levels. And injecting twice a week is not bad. T-gels have an advantage vs injecting one a week or every two weeks. With injections done properly, T-gels have no advantage in terms of steady levels.
I did not state that insurance was the problem. I stated that the makers of T-gel are taking advantage of the system by positioning a very costly delivery system to milk the insurance system. If the motive is to improve upon injecting every to weeks, injecting every two days solves the problem without increasing costs by a factor of 10.
I point out the problems with transdermals. Some of these problems are not significant issues for some. Nevertheless, one needs to understand these issues. Many of these issues do not exist with injected T.
There really are no significant problems with injecting. You mentioned a number of concerns. These really do not amount to anything with proper technique. If one does not have a properly functioning immune system, there would be issues. Doctors do not hand out needles [or injectables]. You get those from a pharmacy. If docs have hangups about self injections, that is really a discussion about doctor attitudes and not really a medical discussion.
When injections are done properly, frequent self injections, transdermal T delivery systems do not have any advantages in terms of T levels and certainly are worst from a true cost:benefit perspective.
Many have catastrophic health insurance with high deductibles. These people effectively pay for TRT out of pocket. Not just an concern for the unemployed.
Doctors are really not cost concerned and you really are not. This is a problem.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
There was only one occasion in which a problem occurred; my T level reached 1500 ng/dL with my usual daily dose of 10 grams of gel - an abnormally high level. I had gone far too long between visits (I’m supposed to see him once every 6 months and that time I foolishly went almost a year without seeing him) and was compelled to see him because I had acquired acne on my lower back, my temperament was becoming highly explosive and emotive, and gains in the gym were coming just a bit too easy.
[/quote]
i’d totally like to experience this.
Bricknyce, you put yours on at bedtime? thought morning was preferred recommended time?
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I don’t know why you’d like to experience an abnormally high level. I didn’t feel good at all.
It could have been that. I’m not sure. I mean, my sex drive was through the roof and was making AWESOME gains in the gym, but I was bloated, had painful cystic acne all over my lower back, and my temper and emotions were out of control!
[quote]Ruged wrote:
sorry but I got to say it,
KSman you got some vested interest in steering guys to T injections,i’m certain of it.
what you work for major pharaceutical firm that makes the stuff?
every thread or post on the subject of HRT, there you are quickly jumping in with same old line that all other methods, gels,pellets are all useless and only effective therapy is injectable T.
very suspicious[/quote]
Even I wouldn’t troll in here, and I troll a LOT. Troll in PWI or GAL or SAMA.
Really, trolling in a serious forum, bro? No…just…no…