How Relevant is Marx Today?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
CAPITALISM 101: the capitalist system purposely underproduces, to keep scarcity levels, thus raising value and not flooding a market.

If the capitalist did not privately own the means of productiona nd it was publicly owned, underproduction would not be the goal, abundance would.

Tonnes and tonnes of food are dumped every month, to avoid lowering food prices, when thousands starve everyday, clothes, appliances, even medicine is dumped to avoid overproduction, only the madness of capitalism can purposely create shortage while the world suffers and people go without.

The technology and production process we have today is what makes Anarchism possible, Capitalism was an amazing and revolutionary system that abolished feudalism, it was what created the possibility for Anarchism/communism, it is now possible, once the masses take over the means of production to feed, house and provide an amazing life for all.[/quote]

Wow. I mean, wow. You seriously believe that? Wow.

If all this food, clothing, appliances, medicine is being dumped, why aren’t people out there trying to steal it and redistribute it?

Capitalism relies on scarcity, yes… but it doesn’t cause scarcity.

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[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
CAPITALISM 101: the capitalist system purposely underproduces, to keep scarcity levels, thus raising value and not flooding a market.

If the capitalist did not privately own the means of productiona nd it was publicly owned, underproduction would not be the goal, abundance would.

Tonnes and tonnes of food are dumped every month, to avoid lowering food prices, when thousands starve everyday, clothes, appliances, even medicine is dumped to avoid overproduction, only the madness of capitalism can purposely create shortage while the world suffers and people go without.

The technology and production process we have today is what makes Anarchism possible, Capitalism was an amazing and revolutionary system that abolished feudalism, it was what created the possibility for Anarchism/communism, it is now possible, once the masses take over the means of production to feed, house and provide an amazing life for all.[/quote]

Wow. I mean, wow. You seriously believe that? Wow.

If all this food, clothing, appliances, medicine is being dumped, why aren’t people out there trying to steal it and redistribute it?

Capitalism relies on scarcity, yes… but it doesn’t cause scarcity.[/quote]

Its nothing to belive its just is.

Its well knowned that grains are being burned and other commoditys are being destroyed.

163

They do, dumpster diving is one example, for liberals who think you can change capitalism by dropping out because they are morons.

The facts i stated are not disputable. It is a fact, not a secret, capitalism purposely creates scarcity, its the best way to maximize profit, the only way to keep capitalism going, if we had abundance we would quickly eliminate the bosses.

164

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
CAPITALISM 101: the capitalist system purposely underproduces, to keep scarcity levels, thus raising value and not flooding a market.

If the capitalist did not privately own the means of productiona nd it was publicly owned, underproduction would not be the goal, abundance would.

Tonnes and tonnes of food are dumped every month, to avoid lowering food prices, when thousands starve everyday, clothes, appliances, even medicine is dumped to avoid overproduction, only the madness of capitalism can purposely create shortage while the world suffers and people go without.

The technology and production process we have today is what makes Anarchism possible, Capitalism was an amazing and revolutionary system that abolished feudalism, it was what created the possibility for Anarchism/communism, it is now possible, once the masses take over the means of production to feed, house and provide an amazing life for all.[/quote]

Wow. I mean, wow. You seriously believe that? Wow.

If all this food, clothing, appliances, medicine is being dumped, why aren’t people out there trying to steal it and redistribute it?

Capitalism relies on scarcity, yes… but it doesn’t cause scarcity.[/quote]

Its nothing to belive its just is.

Its well knowned that grains are being burned and other commoditys are being destroyed.
[/quote]

It’s also well known that men rape, pillage and murder. But that doesn’t mean we should lock all men up in prison. It’s an extreme solution for a number of isolated cases.

There is food that gets dumped. I’m not denying that. But I’m also not buying the idea that it’s “normal” or “the goal of capitalism to underproduce”. Not every farmer burns their grains. Not every clothier dumps their clothing.

165

No it is a system that needs to underproduce, it has to, to survive, it is the basic economic principal, if you have abundant commodities without scarcity, the insane capitalist value system would mean everything would cost far less, resulting in the system becoming unmanagable, this is the inside joke capitalism plays on the masses as the people who own the means of production and control society laugh their ass off.

166

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
They do, dumpster diving is one example, for liberals who think you can change capitalism by dropping out because they are morons.

The facts i stated are not disputable. It is a fact, not a secret, capitalism purposely creates scarcity, its the best way to maximize profit, the only way to keep capitalism going, if we had abundance we would quickly eliminate the bosses.[/quote]

Scarcity is not the best way to maximize profit by any means. I don’t know where you would have gotten that idea from.

It can SOMETIMES be the best way to maximize profit; and other times not. It’s not even the best way to maximize price… and it definitely doesn’t do much good at helping to minimize the cost of production on a per-unit basis.

167

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

No it is a system that needs to underproduce…[/quote]

No, “systems” do not underproduce. Monopolies and oligopolies may restrict production to boost profits, but there is nothing in capitalism that “needs” to overproduce. That is nonsense.

Moreover, look around you. Does the world appear to be lack in production of stuff? Does there appear to be a scarcity of things made by capitalist economies?

If this “underproduction” is essential to Capitalism, it’s failing miserably to fulfill its own mission - look around you. Yet, Capitalists everywhere aren’t complaining, and want to see more Capitalism.

Translation: your story doesn’t add up.

168

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
They do, dumpster diving is one example, for liberals who think you can change capitalism by dropping out because they are morons.

The facts i stated are not disputable. It is a fact, not a secret, capitalism purposely creates scarcity, its the best way to maximize profit, the only way to keep capitalism going, if we had abundance we would quickly eliminate the bosses.[/quote]

Scarcity is not the best way to maximize profit by any means. I don’t know where you would have gotten that idea from.

It can SOMETIMES be the best way to maximize profit; and other times not. It’s not even the best way to maximize price… and it definitely doesn’t do much good at helping to minimize the cost of production on a per-unit basis.[/quote]

LOL, no shit, thats not the point of it it is to keep the sale price up, not lower the production price. do you have anything relevant to share?

169

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

No, “systems” do not underproduce. Monopolies and oligopolies may restrict production to boost profits, but there is nothing in capitalism that “needs” to underproduce. That is nonsense.[/quote]

Whoops, typo - bold is corrected (the edit button wouldn’t work).

170

[youtube]pjHTrwCstcM[youtube]

171

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
No it is a system that needs to underproduce, it has to, to survive, it is the basic economic principal, if you have abundant commodities without scarcity, the insane capitalist value system would mean everything would cost far less, resulting in the system becoming unmanagable, this is the inside joke capitalism plays on the masses as the people who own the means of production and control society laugh their ass off.[/quote]

Scarcity for most commodities exists whether there’s capitalism or not.

And you’re absolutely right, capitalism breaks down when exposed to abundance; take the current case of the music and movie industries battling effectively unlimited distribution at virtually zero production cost. Capitalism simply doesn’t work there.

However, most commodities don’t exist in abundance, and that has nothing to do with capitalism intentionally keeping them scarce.

172

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
They do, dumpster diving is one example, for liberals who think you can change capitalism by dropping out because they are morons.

The facts i stated are not disputable. It is a fact, not a secret, capitalism purposely creates scarcity, its the best way to maximize profit, the only way to keep capitalism going, if we had abundance we would quickly eliminate the bosses.[/quote]

Scarcity is not the best way to maximize profit by any means. I don’t know where you would have gotten that idea from.

It can SOMETIMES be the best way to maximize profit; and other times not. It’s not even the best way to maximize price… and it definitely doesn’t do much good at helping to minimize the cost of production on a per-unit basis.[/quote]

LOL, no shit, thats not the point of it it is to keep the sale price up, not lower the production price. do you have anything relevant to share?[/quote]

What?

Profit = price - cost.

For most products, especially commodities, it’s very difficult to raise the actual price for the product… so a significant amount of time and energy goes into reducing the cost for producing that product, in order to increase profits. I’m not sure what scarcity has to do with it at all.

More importantly, even at zero profit, these same commodities still wouldn’t be in abundance.

173

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

So mutual aid is one of two of the biggest factors in survival of the fittest, but you argue Human nature can not allow Mutual aid via Anarchism?[/quote][

Well, sure - mutual aid is alive and well, even in an advanced capitalist economy. In fact, capitalism helps assist “mutual aid” - how? By providing surplus that can be shared.

You don’t need Anarchism for mutual aid - in fact, Anarchism would diminish mutual aid. Why? Without the security of the state to enforce laws and contracts, people wouldn’t reliably produce enough to share outside of their own consumption…why would they if they know somebody can come in and take what they have worked hard to produce?

Darwin’s theory doesn’t quite translate to human activity for lots of reasons, but to the extent it does, our species isn’t in danger of dying out due to a lack of mutual aid. That’s stupid.[/quote]

This is totally absurd, capitalism is the total opposite of mutual aid, there is no surplus to be shared, only surplus value to be stolen by the capitalist from the worker, the worker makes all the produce, the capitalist makes none, if the workers take over those factories, those stores, those restraunts, if the farmers collectivize, the lorry drivers organize a logistical federation, they could do everything they can now, but be even more productive, money is made, money does not make, a capitalist steals produce, He does not produce steel. [/quote]

So do you hold the idea that management, in any form, is a worthless endeavor?

You have a very extreme position here, one that doesn’t reflect the reality of most situations. What you’re describing is almost a slave society. However, there is still a fundamental exchange that goes on; the worker chooses to exchange their means of production (time, skills, energy) for something in return. Oftentimes it’s money, but not always. However it’s still predicated on choice even at the lowest levels.[/quote]

He is probably not saying that you dont need whitecollar workers, he is just saying that production can happen whitout a capitalist( a privat owner who takes out the surplus ).
[/quote]

Yeah?

Who bears the risk?

Who raises the capital?

Who decides what factors of production are used?

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[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

CAPITALISM 101: the capitalist system purposely underproduces, to keep scarcity levels, thus raising value and not flooding a market.

[/quote]

Nonsense.

Every “capitalist” has millions of competitors that would immediately move into the market if he tried to do that.

Either capitalists are greedy or they are not, make up your mind.

176

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

So mutual aid is one of two of the biggest factors in survival of the fittest, but you argue Human nature can not allow Mutual aid via Anarchism?[/quote][

Well, sure - mutual aid is alive and well, even in an advanced capitalist economy. In fact, capitalism helps assist “mutual aid” - how? By providing surplus that can be shared.

You don’t need Anarchism for mutual aid - in fact, Anarchism would diminish mutual aid. Why? Without the security of the state to enforce laws and contracts, people wouldn’t reliably produce enough to share outside of their own consumption…why would they if they know somebody can come in and take what they have worked hard to produce?

Darwin’s theory doesn’t quite translate to human activity for lots of reasons, but to the extent it does, our species isn’t in danger of dying out due to a lack of mutual aid. That’s stupid.[/quote]

This is totally absurd, capitalism is the total opposite of mutual aid, there is no surplus to be shared, only surplus value to be stolen by the capitalist from the worker, the worker makes all the produce, the capitalist makes none, if the workers take over those factories, those stores, those restraunts, if the farmers collectivize, the lorry drivers organize a logistical federation, they could do everything they can now, but be even more productive, money is made, money does not make, a capitalist steals produce, He does not produce steel. [/quote]

So do you hold the idea that management, in any form, is a worthless endeavor?

You have a very extreme position here, one that doesn’t reflect the reality of most situations. What you’re describing is almost a slave society. However, there is still a fundamental exchange that goes on; the worker chooses to exchange their means of production (time, skills, energy) for something in return. Oftentimes it’s money, but not always. However it’s still predicated on choice even at the lowest levels.[/quote]

He is probably not saying that you dont need whitecollar workers, he is just saying that production can happen whitout a capitalist( a privat owner who takes out the surplus ).
[/quote]

Yeah?

Who bears the risk?

Who raises the capital?

Who decides what factors of production are used?
[/quote]

if there was no profit incentive and capitalism there would be no risk, as there is no financial motivation, just the want to produce in abundance.

177

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

CAPITALISM 101: the capitalist system purposely underproduces, to keep scarcity levels, thus raising value and not flooding a market.

[/quote]

Nonsense.

Every “capitalist” has millions of competitors that would immediately move into the market if he tried to do that.

Either capitalists are greedy or they are not, make up your mind. [/quote]

The goal is to eliminate the capitalist system, not make individual capitalists less greedy.

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people who keep confusing what Anarchism is, watch that short video, then ask, once you understand the system.

180

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
if there was no profit incentive and capitalism there would be no risk, as there is no financial motivation, just the want to produce in abundance.[/quote]

Personal question.

If you’re proposing that people naturally want to produce in abundance, what are you doing spending so much time arguing on here?

Especially when you could be out there, producing in abundance? Unless that’s not really what you want to be doing.