[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
ok FL - repeat with me: Influence is not cause
You can keep saying that, but it doesn’t make it true. From a scientific perspective, any influence is in fact a cause. If a variable accounts for even 1% of the variance in a given outcome, that variable is considered to be causal.
It is not a magical construct - you identified it yourself “can influence OUR CHOICES” - free will is the soul’s freedom to choose.
Of course it’s magical, since by your own admission it is supernatural. Let me ask you this:
Do you believe anyone has been born, and lived their entire life, without ever having reached the age of accountability?
what causes any one influence to have the deciding vote? Why that would be free will - the moral authority of the individual.
There are other equally viable explanations. Have you ever had a course in cognitive psychology? There are several theories of human decision making which offer explanations that don’t require the presence of a magical soul in order for people to make decisions. For example, you could assign positive and negative valences to Option A and Option B, based on your values and beliefs, and rationally calculate which Option you believe will most likely be in your best interest. None of that requires a magical soul in order to take place.
In proof of that - you can violate every influence in your life at a moments notice - why is that?[
Can you provide an example of this which adequately rules out other possible explanations?
The majority of abused children do not become child abusers themselves - why? Because they chose not to be that kind of person.
What about the possibility that abused children experience the negative consequences of abuse firsthand, and as a result do not desire to perpetuate those consequences on others, due to their value system? Again, none of that requires a magical soul in order to happen.
But here is why people do not want free will to be real:
- If free will is real - then I alone am responsible for my decisions.
- If free will is real - then I have a soul
- If I have a soul and I am responsible for my decisions - who am I responsible to?
- I have a soul and am responsible to the one who gave that soul life . . .
Why are you assuming I don’t want free will to be real? I would love free will to be real. For all I know, it is…but there are other explanations for free will outside of a divinely created soul. I’m also honest enough to admit that free will could just be an illusion. There are valid arguments either way, and neither side requires the belief in god(s).[/quote]
Look, we can keep telling each other what we believe - but I don’t think we are getting anywhere here. We’re just restating the same things to each other. You see influence as cause, you see no autonomy in our existence - I get that. But that does not alter my understanding of how we operate as individuals.
Free will is there - you even admit its possibility. But then you get hung up because the logical progression would then lead to your acknowledging the existence of the soul. You can call the soul magical all day long - but that doesn’t alter the reality of this construct.
Even in your example - people make all sorts of decisions that are not in their best interest, violate foundational principles, ignore consequences, portray an opposition to long held beliefs . .etc. You even hint at free will again in your illustration of the abused child - you see the effect, but disagree on the mechanics.
If there is no you to make the decision - then there are not choices, but merely reactions. You have no autonomy, no self-existence, (as Mak would say- you are a cockroach) you did not even choose to reject Christianity - your brain merely reacted to that particular day’s stimuli. You are just an elaborate construction of your brain . . . just keep telling yourself that . . .
That just doesn’t square with what I see in the universe. let’s take the simple idea of peace(serenity) - take some drugs and you can give yourself a sense of peace (that goes away after the drugs wear off) - what or who was “at peace”. Your brain was not at peace -it still does what it was doing . . . the brain cannot “feel” an emotion- there is an interplay happening there that goes beyond mere biological/chemical reaction - how do I know this - because you can also achieve peace without the chemical reaction. It is a proven fact that your mood can affect your brain just as your brain can affect you mood - the entire science of psychology is based on the fact that reasoning/understanding/choice can alter your emotions and behavior even in opposition to brain chemistry. And if the emotion is not dependent on the chemical (thus no affect on the brain) - where is the emotion occurring?
