[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
But then your treatment of people is based on a lie - you treat them as being more special than cockroaches when they really truly are not . . .[/quote]
Sigh. If the human race was wiped out, I’m sure the planet would carry on fine.
THAT is what I’m saying. You make it sound like we are the “chosen” species, when in fact we are just another species. There is nothing that makes us more or less important than cockroaches.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
But then your treatment of people is based on a lie - you treat them as being more special than cockroaches when they really truly are not . . .
Sigh. If the human race was wiped out, I’m sure the planet would carry on fine.
THAT is what I’m saying. You make it sound like we are the “chosen” species, when in fact we are just another species. There is nothing that makes us more or less important than cockroaches.
Mak, you are destined for a lifetime of emptiness if you maintain this attitude.[/quote]
If you say so.
I on the other hand, am finding life pretty damn good right now. I have my ups, I have my downs. Just like everyone else.
The difference is that when I have my ups, I don’t thank God, I just enjoy the good times.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Makavali wrote:
The difference is that when I have my ups, I don’t thank God, I just enjoy the good times.
One of the reasons why the ‘downs’ will smack you rather hard. Get back with me in 10 - 20 years and tell me if I’m wrong.
[/quote]
with nay god, life is meaningless?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Makavali wrote:
The difference is that when I have my ups, I don’t thank God, I just enjoy the good times.
One of the reasons why the ‘downs’ will smack you rather hard. Get back with me in 10 - 20 years and tell me if I’m wrong.
with nay god, life is meaningless?
Must be. Read all the posts above about cockroaches, soulless people who are driven strictly by biochemical processes, etc.[/quote]
Doesn’t make it any less meaningful for the person.
Not everything good has to be associated with something supernatural.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
forlife wrote:
2. If free will is real - then I have a soul[/quote]
Even a soul is causal.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Your premise is flawed when you assume I–or anyone–has the same criteria for belief that you do. [/quote]
I don’t assume that. I know for a fact that many religious people do not have the same criteria for belief that I do. They choose to believe in ideas that are not supported by objective evidence, and ignore possible alternate explanations in deference to the explanation they want to be true.
I see this all the time. Mary Jo gets remission of her cancer, and is convinced that this is undeniable proof that god has healed her out of his great mercy and love. She ignores the possibility of spontaneous remission, and is blind to the millions of people who experience no such remission, despite praying just as earnestly for healing as she did.
What do you think statistics is, if not a system for determining the probability that something is true? Science is educated guessing, based on what is most likely to be true, as informed by currently available evidence.
Goodness is a subjective quality, and as such is outside the scope of scientific inquiry. It is a value statement, not a scientific hypothesis. Science is only concerned with empirically testable hypotheses.
Again, you have to differentiate between subjective qualities like courage and objective qualities like the circumference of the sun. The former is within the realm of morality, the latter is within the realm of science.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Makavali wrote:
The difference is that when I have my ups, I don’t thank God, I just enjoy the good times.
One of the reasons why the ‘downs’ will smack you rather hard. Get back with me in 10 - 20 years and tell me if I’m wrong.
with nay god, life is meaningless?
Must be. Read all the posts above about cockroaches, soulless people who are driven strictly by biochemical processes, etc.[/quote]
Doesn’t make it any less meaningful for the person.
Not everything good has to be associated with something supernatural.
[quote]forlife wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Your premise is flawed when you assume I–or anyone–has the same criteria for belief that you do.
[/quote]
Heres the criteria: Your unconscious self matching it up to everything you know , and if it passes the test than its “true” for them and they adopt that belief.
Me agree. Never a man do anything for the sake of badness.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
But then your treatment of people is based on a lie - you treat them as being more special than cockroaches when they really truly are not . . .
Sigh. If the human race was wiped out, I’m sure the planet would carry on fine.
THAT is what I’m saying. You make it sound like we are the “chosen” species, when in fact we are just another species. There is nothing that makes us more or less important than cockroaches.[/quote]
Negative, we are way different than any other species that has ever lived. We can choose to go against are own nature, no other animal can do that.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Oleena wrote:
For example, I have a girlfriend who trained her husband to be interested/involved in topics such as saving the environment, which he used to hate, by giving him a blow job every time he showed any progress/openness of thought towards those topics.
Hey, I did the same thing, only the way it works is that everyday I get a blowjob is a day my wife doesn’t get punched in the face.
Works great. Her last shiner is almost all healed up too. My guess is that next year, she won’t even think about skipping Mother’s Day.
[/quote]
She tried to skip mother’s day? Who does she think she is, the queen?
[quote]pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
But then your treatment of people is based on a lie - you treat them as being more special than cockroaches when they really truly are not . . .
Sigh. If the human race was wiped out, I’m sure the planet would carry on fine.
THAT is what I’m saying. You make it sound like we are the “chosen” species, when in fact we are just another species. There is nothing that makes us more or less important than cockroaches.
Negative, we are way different than any other species that has ever lived. We can choose to go against are own nature, no other animal can do that.
[/quote]
define our nature and how we are “rebelling”.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ok FL - repeat with me: Influence is not cause[/quote]
You can keep saying that, but it doesn’t make it true. From a scientific perspective, any influence is in fact a cause. If a variable accounts for even 1% of the variance in a given outcome, that variable is considered to be causal.
Of course it’s magical, since by your own admission it is supernatural. Let me ask you this:
Do you believe anyone has been born, and lived their entire life, without ever having reached the age of accountability?
There are other equally viable explanations. Have you ever had a course in cognitive psychology? There are several theories of human decision making which offer explanations that don’t require the presence of a magical soul in order for people to make decisions. For example, you could assign positive and negative valences to Option A and Option B, based on your values and beliefs, and rationally calculate which Option you believe will most likely be in your best interest. None of that requires a magical soul in order to take place.
Can you provide an example of this which adequately rules out other possible explanations?
What about the possibility that abused children experience the negative consequences of abuse firsthand, and as a result do not desire to perpetuate those consequences on others, due to their value system? Again, none of that requires a magical soul in order to happen.
[quote]But here is why people do not want free will to be real:
Why are you assuming I don’t want free will to be real? I would love free will to be real. For all I know, it is…but there are other explanations for free will outside of a divinely created soul. I’m also honest enough to admit that free will could just be an illusion. There are valid arguments either way, and neither side requires the belief in god(s).
[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
pat wrote:
Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
But then your treatment of people is based on a lie - you treat them as being more special than cockroaches when they really truly are not . . .
Sigh. If the human race was wiped out, I’m sure the planet would carry on fine.
THAT is what I’m saying. You make it sound like we are the “chosen” species, when in fact we are just another species. There is nothing that makes us more or less important than cockroaches.
Negative, we are way different than any other species that has ever lived. We can choose to go against are own nature, no other animal can do that.
define our nature and how we are “rebelling”.
[/quote]
I’ll give you two examples. Name another animal that can willfully commit suicide. Name another animal that willfully chooses to have sex, but purposefully prevents conception?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Can’t be. Not if “scientific inquiry” is the be-all, end-all of all things.[/quote]
I never claimed science was the be-all, end-all of all things. I said it is imperfect, but is the best tool we have for understanding objective reality.
Morality is outside the scope of science. There is no such thing as “objective goodness” in the universe, since “goodness” is only a label we apply to something based on the values we hold. Those values can vary from one person to the next, and it is impossible to objectively prove one person’s value is any more “objectively correct” than another person’s value.
[quote]forlife wrote:
For example, you could assign positive and negative valences to Option A and Option B, based on your values and beliefs, and rationally calculate which Option you believe will most likely be in your best interest. None of that requires a magical soul in order to take place.
[/quote]
DING DING DING DING
This is how we operate. This is what decides every choice we make–all comes down to which option will give us the greater happiness.
if you were IrishSteal you could believe it without believing and really believe it. Ya see?!