We don’t need proof, I have real life experiences. @dbossa wants everyone to believe because he can handle higher E2 that everyone can without symptoms and this is silly.
I feel better with E2 between 25-35, I imagine you want proof or I must be spewing nonsense.
Dumbest thing you’ve said so far. We don’t need proof or evidence? Good job. Going to say this is my opinion based on my own personal experience again? Really? Really??
You’re a dumbass.
Let’s all swap out our protocols based on your anecdotal evidence.
Great job!!
You said, “MOST men do best when Estradiol is within 20-30pg/ml. REGARDLESS of how high the Testosterone to E2 ratio is, mind you.”
Just because you think that YOU feel better…
That doesn’t mean that you can just make a bald assertion that “MOST men…” without providing some kind of proof for your claim, if you want anyone to take you seriously.
No, @TRT_Phoenix said MOST men do best when estradiol is within 20-30pg/mL.
I said I feel better with E2 between 25-35 pg/mL. I was met with I need literature or proof before posting. A lot of the TRT world is anecdotal evidence, evidence or proof of a lot of stuff is lacking.
@systemlord you THINK you feel best with your E2 there because you have zero understanding of it and are unable to figure out a proper protocol for yourself which makes you the poorest choice imaginable to help other guys figure out theirs. You don’t have a damn clue as to what you’re doing.
Why don’t you go offline, get yourself healthy, figure out your protocol and get properly dialed in, and THEN share what you did to make yourself better? Because all I hear is pure nonsense from a sick man who can’t even get himself figured out.
When are we going to see the photo of the man who so easily dishes out medical advice here??
Yes, but you said we don’t need proof. I was asking for proof for the assertion about most men.
So, @TRT_Phoenix made the bald assertion, and you said “We don’t need proof.”
No, you’re right. You don’t need proof. But, when someone makes a bald assertion, nobody takes him seriously without proof to back up the assertion.
I used to think that I felt best at E2 between 20-30 also. But @dbossa convinced me with simple logic, that I may feel even better without the longterm side effects of AI use. And the difference between what he’s saying, and what you guys are saying, is that he has proof to back his claims.
If you think about for minute most men with natural testosterone have an E2 20-30 pg/mL unless they are obese and aren’t deficient by any means in these ranges, so most natural men will do optimal in these ranges.
Where did you think we got these ranges in the first place? Don’t say unhealthy people because unhealthy people have high E2 because they are obese (think 300+ lbs) and unhealthy and their bodies are less efficient.
A lean man with tons of muscle is going to generally have E2 in the 20-30 range. This is where natural men tend to excel. So why would it be any different on TRT?
Provide fucking evidence.
I’ve provided a ton. You’ve provided nothing.
Provide evidence that states that healthy men should have their fucking E2 in the range of 20-30 you bro-science preaching idiot.
Evidence that you are full of shit:
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1Ml3jnxdxpBTc3kKIIpW3KT5CqrwIdjuG?usp=sharing
I thought by now you would noticed Labcorp ranges for testing estrogen in men which is approved by the CDC and is the new standard, the ranges cap at 35 pg/mL.
I never said men should have their E2 in the 20-30 range, I said…
Now I’ve heard some men benefit from estrogen higher than 35 pg/mL, but that’s not true in every case and I think that’s where we have a difference of opinion.
All it takes is one guy to say he feels better with estrogen <35 for your case to fall apart that high estrogen is of no consequence.
So until we have long term studies of men with estrogen well above 35 pg/mL, I won’t take your studies very seriously.
@dbossa I’ve been doing some research on the aromatization issue I brought up in the other thread (ie: why do established labcor ref ranges for E2 seem to indicate that “natural/endo” men aromatize at a lower rate than many men on TRT). I came across an interesting study that doesn’t really relate to my question, unfortunately, but it is relevant to the discussion on aromatization in general, and I did not see this in your Google Drive file set. Link below.
The key takeaway:
Administration of anastrazole, a selective aromatase inhibitor, to testes-intact males increased lesion formation to the same extent as that observed with orchi- dectomized animals.
Lesion formation was in the aortic origin, and the theory is that AIs inhibit aromatase activity in the vessel wall, leading to increased plaque formation.
If this is occurring on-site in the vessel wall, then my theory would be that it doesn’t matter whether the mice were (or would have been) administered without exogenous testosterone. Aromatase activity was inhibited regardless of available precursor.
Another good reason to think twice about surpressing E2 via AI in my humble opinion.
@systemlord Labcorp range doesn’t mean shit. Show me evidence in the medical literature. Drown me in a mountain of evidence as I have with you. Do it! Most men do well there? Prove it! You’re spewing bullshit as usual that you cannot demonstrate! You have ZERO EVIDENCE to support any of it you tool!
Yes, we’ve known this for time that AI use causes dégradation I’d the endothelial walls. It’s literally the dumbest thing you can take while on TRT. This is why I’m borderline screaming at people to stop taking it because I’ve researched this stuff to death at this point.
Evidence please.