How Hard is it Really to Pay for College

Off Topic
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Been searching for a good spot to post one of the best summaries I have ever run across of how real knowledge ACTUALLY is organized. This was from a phenomenal teacher named Dr. Michael Makoid. This should be tattooed on the forehead of anybody studying, myself included. Extremely useful.

[quote]Levels of Knowledge, lowest to highest:

I.To Know: means to memorize (recognize, recall) (Many college courses require only this level of cognitive effort, hence the extensive experience with â??multiple guessâ?? exams).

II.To Comprehend: means to translate; to be able to put information into your own words. (Essay exams routinely call for this level of effort on the part of the student).[/quote]

(below is where real knowledge actually begins)

[quote]III.To Apply: means to be able to use knowledge, rules and principles in an unfamiliar situation. (This is the lowest level of skill necessary to function at a technician level).

IV.To Analyze: means to be able to critically examine a body of knowledge and to be able to identify the relationships. (This is where a B.S. graduate should operate. Education eliminates the need for teachers.)

V.To Synthesize: means to put together information, not necessarily previously so organized, in order to get a new piece of information. (This is the beginning level of professional judgment).

VI.To Evaluate: means to be able to judge the worth of an idea, form hypotheses and do problem solving, research, invent new knowledge. (This is the doctoral level of participation in the area).

A professional routinely operates at level IV and V with occasional forays into level VI. [/quote]

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  1. Learn how to learn.
  2. Learn how to use what you’ve learned.

I would say those are two of the most important skills, if not the two most important skills, that you need in life.

Teachers, classes, textbooks, all that stuff is really nice and helpful, but you shouldn’t rely on it.

I worked in my field (and spent a lot of time thinking and innovating in it) before I went off to college. For me, college was a way to expand on my previous knowledge, just a means to an end. I truly went for a certain amount of education, and I left when I got the education I wanted. Eventually I hit a point where the personal cost required to deal with the BS exceeded the benefit I got from the knowledge, and so I left.

Basically, I got a good education, and no degree. I imagine that would be hard to do at most schools, since I skipped over my gen eds and went straight to undergrad and grad-level coursework in my major. Another topic, another time.

The primary thing that’s allowed me to be successful was not that I went to college, but that I’ve been able to learn what I’ve needed to know, and that I’ve continued to expand that knowledge, by applying it, evaluating it, and trying new things. Once you figure that part out, there’s not really a whole lot stopping you. (Politics aside… but that’s just another thing to work on mastering.)

All that said, I do recommend getting a degree. Just make sure you take advantage of the learning opportunities you get in that environment.

43

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Been searching for a good spot to post one of the best summaries I have ever run across of how real knowledge ACTUALLY is organized. This was from a phenomenal teacher named Dr. Michael Makoid. This should be tattooed on the forehead of anybody studying, myself included. Extremely useful.

[quote]Levels of Knowledge, lowest to highest:

I.To Know: means to memorize (recognize, recall) (Many college courses require only this level of cognitive effort, hence the extensive experience with �¢??multiple guess�¢?? exams).

II.To Comprehend: means to translate; to be able to put information into your own words. (Essay exams routinely call for this level of effort on the part of the student).[/quote]

(below is where real knowledge actually begins)

[quote]III.To Apply: means to be able to use knowledge, rules and principles in an unfamiliar situation. (This is the lowest level of skill necessary to function at a technician level).

IV.To Analyze: means to be able to critically examine a body of knowledge and to be able to identify the relationships. (This is where a B.S. graduate should operate. Education eliminates the need for teachers.)

V.To Synthesize: means to put together information, not necessarily previously so organized, in order to get a new piece of information. (This is the beginning level of professional judgment).

VI.To Evaluate: means to be able to judge the worth of an idea, form hypotheses and do problem solving, research, invent new knowledge. (This is the doctoral level of participation in the area).

A professional routinely operates at level IV and V with occasional forays into level VI. [/quote][/quote]

Good stuff here.

44

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^ I think part of the problem is that many people are forced to get that piece of paper just to qualify for a job and “learning” in a class room is completely different than “learning” on the job, imo. I struggled mightily with motivation in college; although, I did fairly well.[/quote]

Tbh, I’d argue that this very mentality is where people go wrong.

It’s all in the mindset, really. You do your job. If you job is to listen to very boring things that you already know about for hours on end, then you do your job. And you do it perfectly.

It is absolutely the case that what you learn at the job is different from what you learn at the classroom for most disciplines. But that’s absolutely irrelevant.

Because you still need to take that course in order to get that degree/certificate. And, chances are, whatever you do in that course determines how well your instructor likes you (which is important for letter of recommendations) and how well of a grade you receive. Both of these greatly determine your future job placement. And vice versa.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It was hard for me to go from being an NCO of Marines to giving a 5 minute presentation of why the sky is blue… I think a lot of people are like that. They would be exceptionally focused at a new job and learn the necessary skills & information to excel, but are first required to focus on subjects/topics completely unmotivating to them. [/quote]

My dad always said the following to me whenever I said that I can do better next time/I’ll do better at this if X/I’ll do better on the real thing/just about any excuse in the book.

It goes something like this-

“People who do poorly/just merely competently at things tend to say things like that.”

There’s always a whole bunch of things following it, but that’s the main gist of it that I always remember.

45

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Join the military, college is real cheap…[/quote]

Air National Guard. Do it. Seriously.

46

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
^ I think part of the problem is that many people are forced to get that piece of paper just to qualify for a job and “learning” in a class room is completely different than “learning” on the job, imo. I struggled mightily with motivation in college; although, I did fairly well.[/quote]

Tbh, I’d argue that this very mentality is where people go wrong.

It’s all in the mindset, really. You do your job. If you job is to listen to very boring things that you already know about for hours on end, then you do your job. And you do it perfectly.

It is absolutely the case that what you learn at the job is different from what you learn at the classroom for most disciplines. But that’s absolutely irrelevant.

Because you still need to take that course in order to get that degree/certificate. And, chances are, whatever you do in that course determines how well your instructor likes you (which is important for letter of recommendations) and how well of a grade you receive. Both of these greatly determine your future job placement. And vice versa.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
It was hard for me to go from being an NCO of Marines to giving a 5 minute presentation of why the sky is blue… I think a lot of people are like that. They would be exceptionally focused at a new job and learn the necessary skills & information to excel, but are first required to focus on subjects/topics completely unmotivating to them. [/quote]

My dad always said the following to me whenever I said that I can do better next time/I’ll do better at this if X/I’ll do better on the real thing/just about any excuse in the book.

It goes something like this-

“People who do poorly/just merely competently at things tend to say things like that.”

There’s always a whole bunch of things following it, but that’s the main gist of it that I always remember.[/quote]

I suppose we just disagree.

I hate to waste my time and the majority of college is a waste of time in my opinion. To me a degree is a check in the box to crack some doors in the job market, at least in a lot of fields. The underlying point I wanted to make is that you could take a person without a degree who is enthusiastic about working and train them in just about any field to be on par/better than a person with a degree; however, in today’s world you must have a degree to have you resume even be considered. That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because people work differently under different stimulus.

All that said, there is of course a benefit to undergrad/grad degrees. That’s not at all what I’m saying.

I don’t see anything wrong with how you are looking at this. Your view is just to black & white for me and your dads saying sounds great, in theory. Yes, I could of done better in my undergrad biology class, but it’s 100% irrelevant to my degree (accounting) so why would I waste my time on excelling in it? I’d rather see an overhaul of the college system so instead of taking a biology class I could of taken an additional accounting class, since that’s what interests me. Instead I had to sit outside and count the different kinds of animals present on campus (and yes that actually happened). What a joke and irrelevant to any of the jobs I’ve had since.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The underlying point I wanted to make is that you could take a person without a degree who is enthusiastic about working and train them in just about any field to be on par/better than a person with a degree; however, in today’s world you must have a degree to have you resume even be considered. That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because people work differently under different stimulus.[/quote]

I never mentioned any of that. Ever.

Heck, in the very first post I make, I mention that if college is not involved in your ultimate goal, then do not go to college.

College is not an end-all, be-all like how so many people make it out to be.

That being said, if college is required for you to achieve your chosen profession, then you obviously need to go to college.

And here is where I strongly disagree with

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because people work differently under different stimulus.[/quote]

I’ve always considered statements like that to be an excuse. The fact is, your job while you’re at college is to do well at college. That is your job.

If you do not do well at that job, how anyone expect you to do well at your next job? It doesn’t matter if you hate your current job if that job is required to get to the job you want in the future.

It doesn’t have anything to do with college or anything. It has to do with the way you approach things.

Just because you do not like it doesn’t mean that you can refuse to do it. People in my generation, and probably the generation before and after, are so stuck up PRECISELY for thinking that they can refuse to do something that they do not like to do.

But the world doesn’t operate that way. If you refuse to do something because you don’t like it, then the world will just kick you into the curb and care less about you. You’re just one out of 400 million in the U.S. alone. There are many others who can do what you do.

You are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This is fact.

The only way to become slightly less irrelevant is to suck it up and do things that you don’t like to do, if nothing else than to achieve the thing you want.

Harrison Ford is famous for having gotten the part of Han Solo after working for George Lucas as a carpenter. Ford’s supposed chosen profession was acting, but he had to do carpentry in order to make ends mean. For Ford, it turned out to be highly fortuitous. Obviously not many will make it in the way he did, but that’s not the point I want to make.

You need to do things that you don’t like to in order to make it.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t see anything wrong with how you are looking at this. Your view is just to black & white for me and your dads saying sounds great, in theory. Yes, I could of done better in my undergrad biology class, but it’s 100% irrelevant to my degree (accounting) so why would I waste my time on excelling in it? I’d rather see an overhaul of the college system so instead of taking a biology class I could of taken an additional accounting class, since that’s what interests me. Instead I had to sit outside and count the different kinds of animals present on campus (and yes that actually happened). What a joke and irrelevant to any of the jobs I’ve had since.[/quote]

Read above.

And as long as you’re asked to do something, you might as well do it right.

Again, it’s all about mentality and the way you approach things. If you take things that you perceive to be irrelevant lightly, then that very attitude will color the way you approach other things in the future.

Edit-
This all being said, Lorez’s post also reminded me that I actually do agree with what you wrote in the quote above.

I do think we’re being taught too much, but I’m not sure where to put the line.

It just seems like a really nice way to create even greater class differences, among other things.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t see anything wrong with how you are looking at this. Your view is just to black & white for me and your dads saying sounds great, in theory. Yes, I could of done better in my undergrad biology class, but it’s 100% irrelevant to my degree (accounting) so why would I waste my time on excelling in it? I’d rather see an overhaul of the college system so instead of taking a biology class I could of taken an additional accounting class, since that’s what interests me. Instead I had to sit outside and count the different kinds of animals present on campus (and yes that actually happened). What a joke and irrelevant to any of the jobs I’ve had since. [/quote]

It’s interesting how much the university systems are holding onto the old ideas of the well-rounded classical liberal arts education.

I think that was a great idea originally, when most people who went to college were those who were going to be the future leaders. As a leadership base, I think that’s absolutely important.

But as the economy grows and jobs continue to become more specialized, we have a real need for a very strong specialized education system. We’re not training the leaders, we’re training everyone else. And the more time you spend being trained (in the experience sense) and taught (in the intellectual sense) in your field, the better you’re going to be, the more value you can add, the more money you’re going to make, etc etc.

Now, high school and below, I still think that’s still a good place to build a broad and shallow base in near everything.

49

[quote]magick wrote:
I never mentioned any of that. Ever.
[/quote]

I did and you responded to me. How was I supposed to interpret what you wrote?

And like I said, in an lot of cases you need a degree just to get your foot in the door, whether that job truly needs a degree or not. Look at Financial Analysts. Years ago you did not need a degree, try not having a degree in today’s work and see if you get your foot in the door.

That doesn’t make sense to me.

And I say that’s BS. College is not a job, imo. It’s an investment at best.

Because real work and school work are completely different. Have you never met a person that is very intelligent, but does poorly on tests? Or vice versa? Life isn’t so cut and dry.

I’ve never met a person that is always motivated to do something they are forced to do.

Uh sure you can.

Ya, I agree that often your forced to do something you don’t want to do because a broken system forces you too.

Lol, okay. I don’t even know what to say here.

He had to do carpentry so he could eat and that job didn’t help him become an actor.

[quote]
Read above.

And as long as you’re asked to do something, you might as well do it right.

Again, it’s all about mentality and the way you approach things. If you take things that you perceive to be irrelevant lightly, then that very attitude will color the way you approach other things in the future.[/quote]

Ya, 100% disagree and going lightly on irrelevant things has served me just fine thus far.

50

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because people work differently under different stimulus.[/quote]

I’ve always considered statements like that to be an excuse. The fact is, your job while you’re at college is to do well at college. That is your job.

If you do not do well at that job, how anyone expect you to do well at your next job? It doesn’t matter if you hate your current job if that job is required to get to the job you want in the future.

It doesn’t have anything to do with college or anything. It has to do with the way you approach things.

Just because you do not like it doesn’t mean that you can refuse to do it. People in my generation, and probably the generation before and after, are so stuck up PRECISELY for thinking that they can refuse to do something that they do not like to do.

But the world doesn’t operate that way. If you refuse to do something because you don’t like it, then the world will just kick you into the curb and care less about you. You’re just one out of 400 million in the U.S. alone. There are many others who can do what you do.

You are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This is fact.

The only way to become slightly less irrelevant is to suck it up and do things that you don’t like to do, if nothing else than to achieve the thing you want.

Harrison Ford is famous for having gotten the part of Han Solo after working for George Lucas as a carpenter. Ford’s supposed chosen profession was acting, but he had to do carpentry in order to make ends mean. For Ford, it turned out to be highly fortuitous. Obviously not many will make it in the way he did, but that’s not the point I want to make.

You need to do things that you don’t like to in order to make it.
[/quote]

I agree and disagree.

I agree with the basic “suck it up and do the hard work” principle, as a means of reaching your end. The people who aren’t willing to do that part, aren’t going to get anywhere.

But there’s something else you seem to be implying, that there are these fixed paths, fixed tracts out there to accomplish things. That working hard at things that suck is somehow better than being creative and adaptable and forging your own path.

In order to get a job doing whatever, it’s really pretty simple.

  • you have to know what you’re doing
  • you have to be good at it
  • you have to find a way to demonstrate both of those
  • you have to find/create the situation where someone is willing to take a risk on you
  • you have to follow through and mitigate their risk

How you get there doesn’t really matter.

And going to college or “working really hard at useless things” doesn’t guarantee much at all. People aren’t cogs in a machine, and companies that hire people who are just cogs in a machine don’t do very well.

People who do the hard work and just suck it up… will never be the same people who actually change things for the better. Better in the absolute sense. Better for the company’s bottom line. Those may or may not be the same.

The mindset you seem to be encouraging is the one that leads to stagnation and death.

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[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I don’t see anything wrong with how you are looking at this. Your view is just to black & white for me and your dads saying sounds great, in theory. Yes, I could of done better in my undergrad biology class, but it’s 100% irrelevant to my degree (accounting) so why would I waste my time on excelling in it? I’d rather see an overhaul of the college system so instead of taking a biology class I could of taken an additional accounting class, since that’s what interests me. Instead I had to sit outside and count the different kinds of animals present on campus (and yes that actually happened). What a joke and irrelevant to any of the jobs I’ve had since. [/quote]

It’s interesting how much the university systems are holding onto the old ideas of the well-rounded classical liberal arts education.

I think that was a great idea originally, when most people who went to college were those who were going to be the future leaders. As a leadership base, I think that’s absolutely important.

But as the economy grows and jobs continue to become more specialized, we have a real need for a very strong specialized education system. We’re not training the leaders, we’re training everyone else. And the more time you spend being trained (in the experience sense) and taught (in the intellectual sense) in your field, the better you’re going to be, the more value you can add, the more money you’re going to make, etc etc.

Now, high school and below, I still think that’s still a good place to build a broad and shallow base in near everything.[/quote]

Ya, I agree with you.

52

If you have an hour to spare, I really like this documentary.

53

As a senior in high school, this is something I am worrying about to. If I can give you any advice for the next year, focus on your grades. At the rate you are going at, community college will be the only option. I live in North dallas, and am looking at Baylor and Rice as some of my schools. Both are expensive but give out good scholarships if your grades are up there. Dont do the dumb thing and give up on your school work; get it done

54

[quote]Highjumper wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Highjumper wrote:
Didn’t read any responses but my college experience.

  • college is EXPENSIVE as fuck
  • went to a state school
  • did not take out a single loan because I did not want debt for my future family
  • I worked at least 40 hours a week during the school year at one job. During the summer I worked multiple jobs to get 80+ hours in
  • family was non-existent. If I had a family obviously that would have cut costs for me
  • played football
  • did two internships
  • i can sleep when I’m dead were my words to live by
  • my friends didn’t understand why i couldn’t go out and party a lot (they either took out loans or didn’t pay for shit) so that can be hard

*takeaway
I learned a lot about time management, hard work, and that I am very resilient. If I had to do it all over again I wouldn’t change any of it because it made me tough and I showed myself that if I can do that for four years then the rest of my adult life should be a breeze.

If you can I would say at the very least try to have a part time job and pay for most of your expenses because it will make you a better person in the long run.
It may sound cliche but. What doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger. including paying for college[/quote]

Bro, there is no way you could have paid for tuition + accommodation + living expenses (+ have anything left over) with just money from working student jobs.[/quote]
Bro

I really wouldn’t call working at a factory/warehouse for $15 per hour a student job…

Besides what was the point in questioning me? [/quote]

What were your annual tuition fees?

55

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Highjumper wrote:

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Highjumper wrote:
Didn’t read any responses but my college experience.

  • college is EXPENSIVE as fuck
  • went to a state school
  • did not take out a single loan because I did not want debt for my future family
  • I worked at least 40 hours a week during the school year at one job. During the summer I worked multiple jobs to get 80+ hours in
  • family was non-existent. If I had a family obviously that would have cut costs for me
  • played football
  • did two internships
  • i can sleep when I’m dead were my words to live by
  • my friends didn’t understand why i couldn’t go out and party a lot (they either took out loans or didn’t pay for shit) so that can be hard

*takeaway
I learned a lot about time management, hard work, and that I am very resilient. If I had to do it all over again I wouldn’t change any of it because it made me tough and I showed myself that if I can do that for four years then the rest of my adult life should be a breeze.

If you can I would say at the very least try to have a part time job and pay for most of your expenses because it will make you a better person in the long run.
It may sound cliche but. What doesn’t kill you only makes you stronger. including paying for college[/quote]

Bro, there is no way you could have paid for tuition + accommodation + living expenses (+ have anything left over) with just money from working student jobs.[/quote]
Bro

I really wouldn’t call working at a factory/warehouse for $15 per hour a student job…

Besides what was the point in questioning me? [/quote]

What were your annual tuition fees?
[/quote]
$14,000 - $15,000 for tuition and books

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I can’t really give you much help for how to pay for college, but once your there, don’t get a degree in environmental science. It’s been over a year and a half since I got an MS in that I still can’t find a science career and pretty much now have to get a minor or even another major in a hard science to get in the field to make things happen. I was even passed up for a 13$/hour technical support for geologists position despite spending the time, effort, and money on a Masters. The degree is nearly worthless despite being told that it would be a great major and open a lot of doors to a lot of career opportunities when I started. You’re better off getting a biochemical degree, geology, or biology degree if you’re trying to get into one the environmental fields.

57

[quote]Jathan.young wrote:
As a senior in high school, this is something I am worrying about to. If I can give you any advice for the next year, focus on your grades. At the rate you are going at, community college will be the only option. I live in North dallas, and am looking at Baylor and Rice as some of my schools. Both are expensive but give out good scholarships if your grades are up there. Dont do the dumb thing and give up on your school work; get it done[/quote]

Nah, he doesn’t have bad enough grades to be rejected. They’re not great and they won’t get scholarships based on academics, but he will get into state university unless he does terribly on the ACT. And he’s got time to get the grades up too.

58

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I can’t really give you much help for how to pay for college, but once your there, don’t get a degree in environmental science. It’s been over a year and a half since I got an MS in that I still can’t find a science career and pretty much now have to get a minor or even another major in a hard science to get in the field to make things happen. I was even passed up for a 13$/hour technical support for geologists position despite spending the time, effort, and money on a Masters. The degree is nearly worthless despite being told that it would be a great major and open a lot of doors to a lot of career opportunities when I started. You’re better off getting a biochemical degree, geology, or biology degree if you’re trying to get into one the environmental fields. [/quote]

I’m really sorry to hear that mate! You’re a smart cat and deserve better, but unfortunately I have to agree with you the hard sciences are a better bet for you :/. Best of luck sir, keep your head on straight and eye on the prize. I would recommend biochemistry personally :slight_smile:

59

Environmental science actually is considered a hard science. Not up there with chemistry or physics, but kind of along the lines of biology or geology.

Maybe it’s not totally worthless, but my educational background was way too broad and I need to decide to specialize in the one of the environmental fields.

I’m in Texas, so I’m thinking additional geology work would land me a job the fastest with the best pay since there’s all that oil around and when those oil companies hire out for consulting groups, they want people with geology, remediation, and compliance background and sometimes petroleum or chemical engineering.

The issue is that they want someone who can start with little to no training and someone with an environmental science degree isn’t recognized as such. Largely because it’s usually been geologists in the past who did that thing and that’s just how it’s been so they don’t wanna try something different. Also, despite there being a large number of environmental job openings, there’s an even larger number of people trying to get them. It’s like several years back, everyone was told how great it would be to go into the field, then everyone and their mom started getting degrees in it and the market is now saturated. I even had a recruiter who when I told her my major said, ‘mmm there’s so many of ya’ll I’m sorry that’s not what are company needs right now’

Haha. I’ve even heard engineering is starting to get that way but not that bad. It used to be with engineering that if you get above a 2.5 gpa with a BS, your good for a high paying job. Now I hear the GPA has to be higher and in some cases, even an MS. But’s that’s just hearsay, I’m not following engineering too closely.

I’m thinking if I start a minor in geophysics or geology at U of H, I can at least refresh my resume. And maybe even get picked up before I have to complete it.

60

If you do 4 years at a university, you need to make sure you will have a high paying job when you graduate. I went 5 years at a state school and studied Electrical Engineering. I lived on FAFSA loans during that time because my parents made too much for me to get assistance, but not enough to help me with school. The ONLY reason I am able to pay my loans is because I got a high paying job right out of school. If you are doing something other than engineering or similar, 2 years at a community college is vital unless you want to be in debt the rest of your life.

Also, there are tons and tons of scholarships available that you need to be applying for right now if you want free money to go to school. There are websites with scholarships listed and most require a short essay on a certain topic. Most people don’t apply for these so many are easy to get. That is my one regret of going to college and not applying for more scholarships. It will save you tens of thousands of dollars later.