[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Dedicated
Where do you stand?
Me Solomon Grundy
Agnostic… I don’t believe in the bible one iota, but I do believe, in the slim in my estimation, probability of a higher power.
D [/quote]
Fair enough.
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
In the words of Jesus, “You are not very far from the Kingdom of God.”
ASK and ye shall recieve my friend.
[/quote]
This is a bit more personal than I generally like to get, but here goes. While I have always contemplated God, and wondered what he might be, I have never been a believer, and have always had doubts. Certainly not a Christian. In high school, my best friend at the time was agnostic, and steadily became more atheistic until we both went off to separate colleges. When he got there, he fell in love with a young woman who was a Christian, and started attending church regularly again.
He was saved.
I was happy for him and his newfound faith. There were certain hypocrisies I noticed, but said nothing about. As I said, he was a very good friend who I cared about a great deal, and I did think he was made happier by his faith. He was no dummy, either, and I respected his opinions and beliefs. I took his conversion seriously, and I wondered if I might be missing something in my own life.
I prayed, I read the Bible, I went to services. I agonized over the fact that I could not force myself to have faith, nor were my prayers for it being answered. Eventually, my “friend” disclosed to me that he felt I would go to hell.
After a while, it just got tiring. The religious people I spoke to were no help; they insisted that I should “keep trying.” At some point, I figured that I might brainwash myself into quasi-belief if I persisted, and started wondering why I was trying in the first place.
I suppose I’m not as evolved as some of the atheist/agnostics, here, because I still do pray occasionally. Mostly out of ritualistic superstition. Rationally, of course, I know that it probably has no effect. But, like I said, I’m not as evolved as some of you.
At any rate, I have asked, and the answer seems to be a very firm “Maybe.” I don’t dismiss the notion of God, and I think that personal faith can be very fulfilling and positive. I also think it can be very cruel and hurtful, especially to the “damned” friends and relatives of the convert.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
In the words of Jesus, “You are not very far from the Kingdom of God.”
ASK and ye shall recieve my friend.
This is a bit more personal than I generally like to get, but here goes. While I have always contemplated God, and wondered what he might be, I have never been a believer, and have always had doubts. Certainly not a Christian. In high school, my best friend at the time was agnostic, and steadily became more atheistic until we both went off to separate colleges. When he got there, he fell in love with a young woman who was a Christian, and started attending church regularly again.
He was saved.
I was happy for him and his newfound faith. There were certain hypocrisies I noticed, but said nothing about. As I said, he was a very good friend who I cared about a great deal, and I did think he was made happier by his faith. He was no dummy, either, and I respected his opinions and beliefs. I took his conversion seriously, and I wondered if I might be missing something in my own life.
I prayed, I read the Bible, I went to services. I agonized over the fact that I could not force myself to have faith, nor were my prayers for it being answered. Eventually, my “friend” disclosed to me that he felt I would go to hell.
After a while, it just got tiring. The religious people I spoke to were no help; they insisted that I should “keep trying.” At some point, I figured that I might brainwash myself into quasi-belief if I persisted, and started wondering why I was trying in the first place.
I suppose I’m not as evolved as some of the atheist/agnostics, here, because I still do pray occasionally. Mostly out of ritualistic superstition. Rationally, of course, I know that it probably has no effect. But, like I said, I’m not as evolved as some of you.
At any rate, I have asked, and the answer seems to be a very firm “Maybe.” I don’t dismiss the notion of God, and I think that personal faith can be very fulfilling and positive. I also think it can be very cruel and hurtful, especially to the “damned” friends and relatives of the convert. [/quote]
Dude I am in the exact same boat as you. I always ask people “How am I supposed to feel the touch of God?” or “How am I supposed to let God into my heart?” and I always get some abstract answer like “You have to listen” or “Come God will, if you call” in some “Yodaesque-speak” and I’m always baffled.
How am I supposed to get in touch with God if there is no concrete method other than prayer or “letting him in?” And sometimes those Christians who bother people on the street (sorry, I don’t know the exact name of them and yes, they bother the hell out of me) ask me if I love God. Am I supposed to?
I mean, currently, my love for God is no more or less than a stranger on the street. How the hell are you supposed to love someone you’ve never met. I’ve tried to “love” and “let him in” but all I’ve felt is emptiness and , quite frankly, I might as well have been praying to Zeus, Galactus, or <insert super-powered, cosmic, omnipotent being here>.
I find this whole religion thing, PRIMARILY Christianity at the moment, to be very questionable. Everybody says everything in the Bible is God’s word yet everytime I discuss something with someone or ask a different person, everyone has a different idea on what a particular passage or central idea really means. From my perspective it seems everybody is interpreting religous principles to conincide with how they’re choosing to live their lives, and not with God’s will, if that’s possible because I think that’s a conundrum in itself.
Just my 2 cents for what their worth.
/end rant
[quote]doogie wrote:
silencer wrote:
i.e
Any translation of the Qur’an immediately ceases to be the literal word of God, and hence cannot be equated with the Qur’an in its original Arabic form. In fact, each translation on is actually an interpretation which has been translated. "
Zap Branigan wrote:
This makes me believe Islam was manufactured by man and not God.
God would not care what language was used. Why in the world would God use Arabic as his primary language?
It does not make any sense.
I don’t get why this doesn’t make sense to you. Wouldn’t it be better to say “Only pay attention to my original words”, than to say “Just translate it 1000 times, and follow whatever it says at the end”?
[/quote]
If God really wanted the message out he would have provided the 1000 translations.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
This makes me believe Islam was manufactured by man and not God.
God would not care what language was used. Why in the world would God use Arabic as his primary language?
It does not make any sense.
Other religions have similar markers that make me believe they were created by clever men.
I do not think any religions are based in reality although it is possible a higher power exists.[/quote]
Are you deliberately trying to be ironic here ?
I am reading though all the posts and there is some well thought out stuff here. I wanted to insert a joke here.
An Atheist is in a row boat on Loch Ness and all of a sudden he gets lifted into the air by the Loch Ness Monstor. He screams out God help me! and God stops everything and asks " I thought you didn’t believe in me?" the man replies “Give me a break! a few seconds ago I didn’t believe in the Lochness Monster either!”
Don’t read anything into it. Its just a joke I wanted to share.
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]Stigg. wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
This makes me believe Islam was manufactured by man and not God.
God would not care what language was used. Why in the world would God use Arabic as his primary language?
It does not make any sense.
Other religions have similar markers that make me believe they were created by clever men.
I do not think any religions are based in reality although it is possible a higher power exists.
Are you deliberately trying to be ironic here ?
[/quote]
Not sure where the irony is. I feel this away about all religions.
The only irony I see is God supposedly reveals himself to a chosen few prophets and the rest of us have to rely on blind faith. His prophets don’t have to rely on faith so why should the rest of us?
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Don’t read anything into it. Its just a joke I wanted to share.
Me Solomon Grundy[/quote]
Nice. 
Bullet points for why I am an atheist:
Faith isn’t “real”. It is an idea like Love, Hate, Passion, etc. None of those ideas are “real” either. All that is real is atoms, energies, and time.
Just because something isn’t real doesn’t mean it doesn’t have an effect on us and our feelings. I can feel the power in the concept of my love for others, and how it affects my behavior, but it isn’t “real” in and of itself… it’s something that exists in my mind ONLY, a function and side-effect of my sentience, and it will cease to exist after I die or lose my mind to Alheimer’s, etc.
Your God indirectly has power in that his followers (which ARE real) will do deeds in His name, and pretend that he exists. The irony here is that even though your God isn’t “real”, Jesus IS risen, in a way. He exists in the minds of every devoted Christian. The only way that Jesus (or any God for that matter) can die is for all of his followers to disappear.
For a real God to exist, it must be real in and of itself. Your God is not made out of atoms like we are. It is dependent upon human minds for its “sustenance”, and therefore is as temporary as our faith in the supernatural is. Remember that no believers = dead God. There are many many dead Gods, of which Jesus will most likely be someday… just like Zeus, Apollo, Quetzlcoatl, and so on and so on… a footnote in our cultural history. Ten thousand years from now, Jesus and his effect on our civilization will likely be a semester’s worth in some graduate course in ancient humanities.
Having acknowledged the obviousness of the above three “bullet points” (if they could be considered such), I have come to the conclusion that my life is better dedicated to paying attention to honesty and truth and doing what I can here and now for the sake of the future. There is need for me to pretend.
Not everybody thinks like I do, and that’s fine. As long as you guys don’t try to burn me at the stake or fuck my freedom up, we will get along just fine.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
In the words of Jesus, “You are not very far from the Kingdom of God.”
ASK and ye shall recieve my friend.
This is a bit more personal than I generally like to get, but here goes. While I have always contemplated God, and wondered what he might be, I have never been a believer, and have always had doubts. Certainly not a Christian. In high school, my best friend at the time was agnostic, and steadily became more atheistic until we both went off to separate colleges. When he got there, he fell in love with a young woman who was a Christian, and started attending church regularly again.
He was saved.
I was happy for him and his newfound faith. There were certain hypocrisies I noticed, but said nothing about. As I said, he was a very good friend who I cared about a great deal, and I did think he was made happier by his faith. He was no dummy, either, and I respected his opinions and beliefs. I took his conversion seriously, and I wondered if I might be missing something in my own life.
I prayed, I read the Bible, I went to services. I agonized over the fact that I could not force myself to have faith, nor were my prayers for it being answered. Eventually, my “friend” disclosed to me that he felt I would go to hell.
After a while, it just got tiring. The religious people I spoke to were no help; they insisted that I should “keep trying.” At some point, I figured that I might brainwash myself into quasi-belief if I persisted, and started wondering why I was trying in the first place.
I suppose I’m not as evolved as some of the atheist/agnostics, here, because I still do pray occasionally. Mostly out of ritualistic superstition. Rationally, of course, I know that it probably has no effect. But, like I said, I’m not as evolved as some of you.
At any rate, I have asked, and the answer seems to be a very firm “Maybe.” I don’t dismiss the notion of God, and I think that personal faith can be very fulfilling and positive. I also think it can be very cruel and hurtful, especially to the “damned” friends and relatives of the convert. [/quote]
Ever read, “Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man” by James Joyce?
Your story is familiar to many of us…do not think that those of us that doubt that religion is true don’t pray once in a while for peace of mind…
If there truly is no god, and everything is just random, you should be afraid that a horse will appear in your living room when u leave and poop all over the place.
laws which the universe is governed by says to me that there is an order, and with order usually comes leader ship. secondly, part of the cell theory states that all cells come from other living cells, no acceptions, so where did those first cells come from. also in response to the way churches are run, true christianity can not be classified by the way some groups act if it is not in accordance with gods rules. if you look at alot of religions, christianity is the only one where your accepted just by following jesus christ, other religions are usually based on merit and what u do in this life. islam for one is based on what u do in life in order to get to heaven. also on the homosexuality thing, the church treats homosexuality like pedophilia. when do u draw the line and say whats right, christians are supposed to live by the way jesus did, and he lived according to the bible not permiting homosexuality. Its not that christians are supposed to not accept them, they accept that they can help and cope with there problem, just like turing around pedophiles and rapists
if you read the lion the witch and the wardrobe, the author was a big christian. in one of the books, he talks about somebody not believing a lion was talking, until the listener was only hearing growling.
basically i fell our society is so out of tuned with god, most people will never develope a dependece on god like the old testatment to really hear much. a connection like that taks a long time to cultivate. you might think im crazy but i recieve guidance all the time. people take god as if he can just order up what ever u ask, he doesnt work that way. hes a teacher and mentor, he never will do anything for you, its that little thing called free will.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
As an atheist/agnostic, I’d like to chime in.
To an educated mind, bowing to your god would be totally out of question.
What do I mean with educated?
Certainly not a degree or a grand paycheck.
Only a certain level of general education and the ability to put facts in perspective using reason, logic and some experience with people is required.
What do I mean with bowing?
To subdue myself morally to this whole farce.
You see, there is no real sacrifice involved, which is a fascinating conclusion- Why do so many christians insist to repent (like here on T-Nation), when practically nothing would change?
Do most christians truly sacrifice anything in their lives to their religion? Nope.
It’s just an aggressive form of a ritualistic cultural takeover.
Most humans feel best if their habitat is culturally homogeneous. Else they feel confused, unsure and nervous.
And I won’t convert so others can feel better. And don’t tell me you pray for my soul cause you don’t want me to rot in hell.
What do I mean with your god?
The angry SOB from that dusty old tome people call the bible.
If he is really THE Gawd, we’re all royally fucked - and that includes all devout christians.
(don’t think I really consider this as a possibility. It’s not that I have a problem with HIS awesome style and don’t understand the old texts properly - it’s a hypothetical statement)
Why is it out of the question?
Here is where the discussion begins- and at the same time, it doesn’t.
If yout try to defend yourself/convince me using the bible, we cannot have a real conversation.
If you sincerely let off the holy book arguments and use only reason, logic and your education we can have a newborn atheist in less than ten minutes.
A short list of knockout arguments:
Religions exist all over the world. Most of them share some elements (especially if they’re from the same region like judaism, christianity and islam) , some of them are totally different.
There is no explanation for this other than your religion is somewhat flawed.
Don’t come with arguments like: It’s just that other countries have a different approach.
Wrong. Religion is one the major backbones of culture. If god did his homework, the chinese would have a similar culture. Clearly confusing.
Why didn’t he come earlier?
Poor greeks. Had some of the smartest nerds in history. They’re all gonna burn cause Jesus was late. I’m certain it’s according to the mysterious & divine plan we won’t understand.
If religion wouldn’t exist, you’d have to invent it.
If someone doesn’t understand the historical impact of religion, he is probably not very bright or not very educated, thus being a potential christian.
If you do understand it however, you’d know that religion was always an essential tool to maintain a civilization.
In nearly every twist and rule in the strange big book you regard as holy you can clearly see that it was written by people, not a gawd.
So- there is not really a main thing that holds me back, like: I dunno , but I think he won’t love me since I’m a jerk!
It’s more the other way round. There is no argument for me to even consider changing my attitude.
The sad thing is, once people have changed, they often live a lifelong lie.
Practically no christian will have the courage to openly admit: I was an idiot for believing this crap! Oh how I lied to myself only to have the comfort of not feeling so alone and enjoy the luxury of others telling me what’s right and what’s wrong.
Darn, it’s late!
Until later…
[/quote]
all you hear is the rawr, but the lions really talking, you just have to slow down to hear it.
Being a christian is the hardest thing to ever do, or any credible religion for that matter. we take life as something to cherish and grow and learn. living by a moral and ethical code is not always in your immediate gain, but in the long run you are a better person not sacrificing your values for some short lived pleasure what will never last
If we really think about jesus, there is more evidence for jesus being who he said he was than julius caeser. after jesus’s ressurection you have 9 people that saw hime more than 2 times after his death, with the crusifixion wounds, and had dinnner with him. you know that all the apostles were brutally executed for believeing and repeating what they saw. So if this was all a hoax, why would they all put there lifes on the line for what they knew was to be true
[quote]hardcoreukno0359 wrote:
So if this was all a hoax, why would they all put there lifes on the line for what they knew was to be true[/quote]
Why would the Mormons? Why would the Muslims? Why would David Koresh’s people? What about Jim Jones followers? How about those that cut off their own balls and drank Kool Aid so they could fly to the UFO that was trailing the Hale Bop Comet a few years back?
Dying for a cause doesn’t make it true.
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…for me it’s not about which faith or religion, it’s about believing itself that does not rock my boat. Believing something to be true is in fact telling yourself a lie of which you need to convince yourself over and over again that it is true. I have no interest in doing that…
Can you explain this statement to me?
Believing something to be true is in fact telling yourself a lie of which you need to convince yourself over and over again that it is true.
I’m not sure I follow.
Me Solomon Grundy
…what is it you don’t understand? Believing is accepting something as true in the absence of certainty. That has always struck me as dishonest. Why would i want to believe without ever knowing it is actually the truth?
…this is why i don’t follow religion, or entertain religious beliefs…
I don?t agree with your definition of belief, but I understand. I knew that you did not mean what I was thinking. Do you believe in absolute truth? Do you consider yourself an Atheist or Agnostic?
Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]
…what would your definition of belief be? Absolute truth is a beautiful conundrum; from my POV it is unchangable, applicable to everyone without exception and not subject to time and space. So absolute truth can’t be written down, or be an oral tradition, it can’t be touched/seen/smelled or heared and is therefore so elusive that only the determined can come to understanding about it…
…g-d/God/Allah or what have you is irrelevant to me. Life itself is beautiful and obvious enough to revere and cherish than some unseen boogeyman in the sky who tells a whole lot of other people to do horrible things. Guess i’m an atheist, but since i don’t like to label myself simply forget about it (-:
Still haven’t explained this to me
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Stigg. wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
This makes me believe Islam was manufactured by man and not God.
God would not care what language was used. Why in the world would God use Arabic as his primary language?
It does not make any sense.
Other religions have similar markers that make me believe they were created by clever men.
I do not think any religions are based in reality although it is possible a higher power exists.
Are you deliberately trying to be ironic here ?
Not sure where the irony is. I feel this away about all religions.
The only irony I see is God supposedly reveals himself to a chosen few prophets and the rest of us have to rely on blind faith. His prophets don’t have to rely on faith so why should the rest of us?[/quote]
your american.
You never get irony!
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
doogie wrote:
silencer wrote:
i.e
Any translation of the Qur’an immediately ceases to be the literal word of God, and hence cannot be equated with the Qur’an in its original Arabic form. In fact, each translation on is actually an interpretation which has been translated. "
Zap Branigan wrote:
This makes me believe Islam was manufactured by man and not God.
God would not care what language was used. Why in the world would God use Arabic as his primary language?
It does not make any sense.
I don’t get why this doesn’t make sense to you. Wouldn’t it be better to say “Only pay attention to my original words”, than to say “Just translate it 1000 times, and follow whatever it says at the end”?
If God really wanted the message out he would have provided the 1000 translations.[/quote]
Not to be argumentative, but if he did would you believe? When it comes to religion we want to try to know and understand everything. I don?t think its fair to say that is what he would do. If he is who he says he is, he knows a lot more than we do.
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
If God really wanted the message out he would have provided the 1000 translations.
Not to be argumentative, but if he did would you believe? When it comes to religion we want to try to know and understand everything. I don?t think its fair to say that is what he would do. If he is who he says he is, he knows a lot more than we do.
Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]
It would be one less stumbling block.
I think my point about prophets is also interesting.
Why don’t they have to struggle with their faith like the rest of us?
Why did God choose to reveal himself to them? They don’t even have faith. They have seen the evidence, so they claim.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I think my point about prophets is also interesting.
Why don’t they have to struggle with their faith like the rest of us?
Why did God choose to reveal himself to them? They don’t even have faith. They have seen the evidence, so they claim.
[/quote]
Why did God only choose the Jews as his special people for so many years? They were the only group of people that He revealed Himself to. Not only that, but He had the Jews destroy many other nations because of their sins during that time period.
I would extend this same question to any so-called Christian who cannot believe that God would redeem people exclusively through the blood of Jesus.
We cannot approach God from the point of view that we deserve to be in communion with him and that we deserve his favor or mercy. Mercy would not be mercy if it was deserved. What we all deserve is justice for our sins. Yet God has made a way to be redeemed. You can sit here and say that God’s mercy is not up to your standards, but I wouldn’t recommend it.