You misspoke. God controls all of the influences that DETERMINE my choices. He can’t take credit for just some of creation. If he made everything in the Universe, then he made everything that has ultimately led me to be sitting here typing. If he is all knowing, he knew when he started who would love him and who wouldn’t.[/quote]
Let’s look at Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be comformed into Jesus likeness.” In other words, he wants all to come and be saved, not just some.
The Bible does NOT say anything about being chosen for salvation. His great knowledge of what will happen has nothing to do with him “choosing”
what will happen in advance.
Freewill!
I don’t think you fully (or even patially) understand the concept of Hell.
If you and I are on the 10th floor of a building and you are about to open a door which leads directly to the ground (a ten story drop) and I tell you not to open the door and walk out but you do it anyway, did I push you off the top of a 10 story building, or did you simply act of your own free will and kill yourself?
God cannot be around sin.
Now I know that’s a really hard idea for you to understand, but it happens to be spiritual truth.
Since God cannot be around sin he cannot be around anyone who has not been saved (or cleansed) from that sin.
That’s why you don’t go to Heaven when you die unless you have accepted Jesus Christ!
Okay…back to Hell.
Hell was created for Satan and just about than one third of the Angels that followed him in rebellion. However, they are not there yet.
In other words , it is a place created for those who did not want anything to do with God.
When man fell, through Adam and Eve, they brought “sin” into the world. Where do those go who sin?
The same place that is earmarked (he’s not there yet) for Satan…Hell.
God is NOT putting you there. In fact he sent his one and only son as an atonement for sin so that you could avoid going there.
How much more gracious could God have been than to send his “one and only son” as a sacrifice for you and me!
He gives you a great option which of course thus far you deny…
In my opinion, that is like spitting int the face of someone who has given you the most expensive thoughtful present that money could buy…But of course Jesus Christs great sacrifice is far far more than that…
I know you think that there are people out there who do no evil, but you are quite wrong!
Everyone…does “evil.”
Here is some truth for you:
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:23
“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10
“The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who are wise, who want to please God. But no, all have strayed away; all are rotten with sin. Not one is good, not one!” Psalm 14:2, 3.
That means that no one is deserving of eternal life in Heaven. NO ONE!
Only through accepting Jesus Christ as your savior are your sins forgiven!
And as we have seen, everyone is a sinner!
God created a perfect world and gave man free will to enjoy it.
Man fell and brought sin into the world as I have already pointed out.
Therefore, when you say that God created billions of people he knew would never love him, you are stating a false hood.
He created people with free will. You may choose to love him, or choose not to love him.
Would it have made more sense if God MADE us love him?
That makes no sense does it?
Love is a gift that is freely given. You do not MAKE people love you.
[quote]If God gave clear, undeniable Revolation to each of us, then he could punish us for denying him. If he can’t be bothered to make the effort, screw him.
[/quote]
I guess you would have to define clear undeniable revelation huh?
Giving the gift of your one and only son as sacrifice is an awesome thing.
That you want to dictate the rules to God is a very foolish thing.
That you shake your fist and curse God is even more foolish.
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap” Galatians 6:7
Fortunately it’s not too late for you to make a decsion to come to Christ!
But every second that ticks past puts you closer to your eternity, and then it will be too late.
Such great discussions. I do not have time now to repsond, but will later. Let me say that we must all study life and decide our own paths.
I will say about the bible and the consil of Nicea and its history… many, many of our beliefs (christianity) are handed down through out history. Before we had one of Paul’s letter’s to the churches there exsited doctrine. That is word of mouth, practices and such. And sadly we are at a disadvantage today, trying to determine what transpired and what was said thousands of years ago. I must bolt, but remember that history is written by its victors…
ROMA VICTOR!!! (RCC was the undisputed champion for many, many years)
Stigg. wrote:
I think religion is a personal thing, and should be kept private if you want to do it, not sticking it in everyone’s face
ZEB wrote:
It was never really private. I wonder where you got the idea that it should be?
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6:5-6)[/quote]
doogie I never get tired of pointing you in the right direction.
Jesus Christ was making a reference to the Pharisies who made a big tadoo’ about openly praying and crying out in an outlandish way to the Lord.
Christ stated that this was not necessary with the scripture that you have stated above.
The short message: God does not care about fanfare when you pray. God looks at your heart and the sincerity of your prayer.
Okay?
Now let’s look at some scripture that encourages those of us who are Christians to tell others of the great gift of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 28:19 & 20:
" Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you…"
Now how are we to “make disciples of all nations” without speaking about it openly and at every opportunity?
Paul also spoke of being “bold in our testimony.”
Funny how those who are usually for free speech suddenly reverse themselves when it comes to Gods word.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
(This explanation is from Ray Comfort)
If I were to make an absolute statement such as, “there is no gold in China,” what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to know that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring or in any filling in any mouth in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement. Conversely, for me to say, “There is gold in China,” does not require me to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.
To say categorically, “There is no God,” is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being that has all knowledge. Therefore none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.
If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe there is no God. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don’t know if God exists. This would make you an agnostic.
[/quote]
there is no indisputable proof for the existance of God…that is why to believe, you have to have faith…if we had indisputable proof, faith wouldn’t be needed…
theists and atheists alike lack indisputable proof for their beliefs…both theists and atheists have faith that their beliefs are true, nothing more…
Comfort’s argument fails to address how beliefs are formed (he’s assuming all belief is formed through intellectual thought and evidence…he’s wrong)…
beliefs like theism and atheism are formed through faith…and atheists can have just as much faith as theists do…
atheists don’t have access to all information? so what, they don’t need all information for their belief, they only need to have faith that they are right…
theists don’t have indisputable proof in the existance of God? so what, they don’t need indisputable proof, all they need to have is faith…
beliefs are formed by people that want to believe something…‘all information’ and ‘indisputable proofs’ have nothing to do with holding beliefs in God or atheism…
[quote]DPH wrote:
beliefs like theism and atheism are formed through faith…and atheists can have just as much faith as theists do…
[/quote]
Actually, if I could pop in here for a moment:
A true atheist like me has no “faith”. We take things at face value without pretending in things that aren’t there. The only stuff that’s real is atoms, energies, and time. Everything else in our experience is in our heads… a product of our consciousness… and isn’t there without us to give it “life” and create it.
In order for God to be “real”, he would have to be made out of atoms like everything else that is real. But this isn’t so, because God is an idea – like the ideas of love or hate.
Very simple, common sense stuff here. No belief or guessing required. Do you see why those like me are flabbergasted by religious folks?
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
A true atheist like me has no “faith”. We take things at face value without pretending in things that aren’t there.
The only stuff that’s real is atoms, energies, and time.
[/quote]
how do you know that atoms, energies, and time exist? what proof do you have? seems to me that you have faith in your perceptions of a materialistic universe…
perceptions can be very unreliable…
I think therefor I am…
beyond that it’s very difficult to prove that an external world outside of your mind exists…
philosophers have tackled this question for quite some time and so far no one has come up with an indisputable proof…
if you have an indisputable proof of anything existing outside of your conscience, there are thousands of university professors of philosophy that would be very interested in reading your work…
amazing…you also have indisputable proof that God doesn’t exist…care to share what that indisputable proof is?
is time made out of atoms? if not, is time real? or is time just an ‘idea’ like love or hate?
for that matter, what is space (first, second, and third dimensions) made out of? atoms? or maybe space isn’t real either?
I’ve never been very impressed by common sense…have you any idea how simple minded most people are? what’s common is some dumb fat fuck sitting his ass on a couch watching mind numbing TV…‘common’ sense isn’t worth a squirt of piss…
[quote]
No belief or guessing required. Do you see why those like me are flabbergasted by religious folks? :)[/quote]
hell, I’m flabbergasted by almost everyone…most people spend as much time thinking as Rosie O’Donell spends running faster that fifteen miles per hour…
[quote]DPH wrote:
how do you know that atoms, energies, and time exist? what proof do you have? seems to me that you have faith in your perceptions of a materialistic universe…
perceptions can be very unreliable…
[/quote]
No they aren’t. LOL I don’t smoke weed anymore, so the world isn’t so confusing and warped as it used to be.
I can state quite plainly that my interface with reality consists entirely of particles, energies, and time in which they interact… a four-dimensional construct. After that, if you wanna get metaphysical and whip out string theory and so forth, you are in the realm of conjecture, which is mental masturbation and little else… so far.
There is nothing easier than providing the proof that you seek. All I ask is that you open your eyes. Feel that gravity pulling you to earth? All those things which you experience are directly from this interface you have with your consciousness and the fabric of reality.
The fun thing about your consciousness is your ability to question and suspend disbelief… to imagine and dream. We are animals which can do something that no other animal can do: we can lie to ourselves. That ability has gotten us into a LOT of trouble over the years, but that detachment we have is also responsible for some of our greatest achievements as well.
Reality exists whether we like it or not. Philosophers have made the mistake of discarding everything to start at some ground zero to mathematically and mentally reconstruct the universe. It’s like saying we are going to build a car… but we aren’t allowed to use any parts to do it. It’s pretty hard to build a car out of nothing, so they throw their hands up in the air and say that there’s no proof that anything’s really real.
Sorry… that’s retarded. If you jump out of a plane at six thousand feet with no parachute, you’re gonna be a grease spot – that’s really, really real. The atoms, the energies… they are there, as we see from simple observation.
Do I get a medal now? The problem isn’t with reality, it’s with the way the philosophers questioned it to begin with. For example: why do we have to die?
There is no answer to the question, because it is an invalid one to begin with. We use the question “why” to query the purpose of a behavior. The natural process of death isn’t a human behavior, so there is no answer. Here’s another one: what is the meaning of life? Same thing. The process of life doesn’t have a human meaning or designed purpose because it is a natural process brought about by natural circumstances that led to its beginning. There’s some question still as to how EXACTLY this happened, but it doesn’t change the nature of the process itself. Life has no “meaning”, which is why the question is so impossible to answer. It’s like a zen koan “what’s the sound of one hand clapping?” – it’s not supposed to have a valid answer.
So basically, all these philosopher dudes were wasting their time to begin with. Maybe they just liked to think?
I have no indisputable proof, nor do I need it. The fact that you ask for it is the source of your confusion here. Why do you not also ask me for my indisputable proof that there’s not gigantic five hundred foot invisible space hamsters which run along the equator and cause the world to turn?
Think about this. The second you say “what if XYZ” you are providing conjecture instead of accepting what is reality. You have 100% of the exact reason to believe in any God as I do to believe the earth’s rotation is due to the invisible giant hamsters.
All you have to do is stop inventing things that aren’t there… things that aren’t measurable or observable. Just stop. Stop pretending, and the world suddenly makes a shitload of sense, I promise.
As far as anyone can tell, time is a function of the fabric of reality. It is the mechanism by which matter and energy interact. Fun fact: we cannot actually sense energy itself. We can only sense its effect on matter. Cool huh? Time is the same way. We cannot hold a bucket of time in our hand, but we can sense its effect on our hand as we attempt to wave it through the air – it moves!
Shall I continue, or is my common sense irritating?
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
There is nothing easier than providing the proof that you seek. All I ask is that you open your eyes. Feel that gravity pulling you to earth? All those things which you experience are directly from this interface you have with your consciousness and the fabric of reality.
[/quote]
eyes (and ears, noses, etc.) can be very unreliable source of information…
sense perception is not indisputable proof for the existance of a material world…
belief in a material world requires a ‘leap of faith’ that our sense perception provides us with accurate information…
sure, but what is ‘reality’…
for example, do you have indisputable proof that solipsism is inaccurate?
again, simple observation can be misleading…our senses are very capable of deception…
how bout a doggie biscuit?
philosophers question EVERYTHING! which is a good thing (I think)…
do you think questioning what most people believe (without any investigation) to be a waste of time?
of course…you have faith that God does not exist…
not confused at all…
there are two ways that an atheist can believe in the non-existance of God:
you have faith that God does not exist…
you have indisputable proof that God does not exist…
which category do you fit into?
because it’s an irrelevant question…
for the people that believe in such a thing or disbelieved both would rely on faith…
I have 100% the exact reason to believe in God as you do to believe in the non-existance of God…
through faith…
you have no indisputable proof, therefor you have faith…
the only things that exist are measurable and observable through sense perception?
perhaps…perhaps not…
what observations and measures did you make to come to this conclusion…
I’d be very interested to read them…
some people seem to believe that Einstein’s famous equation says energy and matter are interchangeable…
so now you’re saying that some things that are not made out of atoms exist? awesome!
[quote]
Shall I continue, or is my common sense irritating? :D[/quote]
[quote]DPH wrote:
belief in a material world requires a ‘leap of faith’ that our sense perception provides us with accurate information…[/quote]
But the common sense answer to this is that your senses work just fine until you start trying to imagine that they aren’t.
Example: I pick up a piece of paper. It’s smooth, foldable, etc. It’s really there. I must get weirdly imaginative to try to tell myself that it isn’t really there, and that my eyes and other senses are playing tricks on me.
Keanu: “There is no spoon.”
I agree that your eyes and ears can be fooled, but it is silly to think that this is the normal state of things. Optical illusions are amusing simply for the fact that they are unusual.
This is not the Matrix. Honest. I say it again: Reality exists whether we like it or not.
Once again, asking for the proof is what gives you the confusion. Of course other people exist. Of course. In order to think otherwise, you must suspend your disbelief and pretend that everything around you is a lie, and you are the center of all existence. All data that is available to you confirms that you are not alone. However, it is an amusing sidetrack to take to ponder solipsism, isn’t it? PS Watch out for those giant invisible space hamsters!
Yes, but asking retarded questions leads to mental masturbatoritude. How much better would it be not to ask “what is the meaning of life,” but “what is the best way to live a life?” Right there you have a question that makes sense and has relevence (gasp!) at the same time.
[quote]there are two ways that an atheist can believe in the non-existance of God:
you have faith that God does not exist…
you have indisputable proof that God does not exist…
which category do you fit into?[/quote]
Once again, watch out for the giant space hamsters.
But seriously, you seem locked into this thing that everything is faith-based or indisputable proof based. What happened to just accepting things as they are? I know that God is an idea just the same as I know that there aren’t gigantic space hamsters… simple observation.
If you want to call it “faith” that I know when I drop a quarter from my hand, it will fall to the ground and roll dangerously close to the underside of a woman’s dress, then fine. But you must admit that this is an entirely different kind of thing than having “faith” in something that is unobservable.
[quote]the only things that exist are measurable and observable through sense perception?
perhaps…perhaps not…[/quote]
The things that are measurable or observable exist.
The things that aren’t measurable or observable are in our imaginings. Humans can conceive and dream of all kinds of impossible shit: faster than light travel, teleportation, psychic powers, lightsabers, a woman that never complains… they are all fascinating and cool to imagine, but they aren’t real.
Well I was hoping to skip the interactions of special relativity, but technically, only energy is ALWAYS conserved in a reaction. My point remains, however. You will never observe energy per se, you will see its effects only.
[quote]
Plagiarism, noun. [from plagiary.] The act of purloining another man’s literary works, or introducing passages from another man’s writings and putting them off as one’s own; literary theft.
Plagiary, noun. [L. Plagium, a kidnapping…] 1. A thief in literature; one that purloins another’s writings and offers them to the public as his own. 2. The crime of literary theft.
Webster’s An American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828.
plagiarist “a literary or artistic thief”
plagiarize … “To steal or purloin and use as one’s own (the ideas, words, artistic productions, etc., of another); to use without due credit the ideas, expressions, or productions of (another).”
purloin … “to take away for one’s self; hence, to steal; filch”
Webster’s New International Dictionary of the English Language, 1925.
plagiarize … “1. To steal and use (the ideas or writings of another) as one’s own. 2. To appropriate passages or ideas from (another) to use as one’s own.”
…An honest conscience cannot borrow upon another’s labors and extend him no credit.
The deliberate plagiarizing of ideas is akin to the sin of kidnapping. In fact, that is exactly what the word “plagiarize” means–“kidnap.”
[quote]
“And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16, compare Deuteronomy 24:7; 1st Timothy 1:10)[/quote]
When you take another man’s ideas, born of his own mind, and you use them as if they were your own children, you destroy another man’s house and leave him without his child. You steal the heritage which God has given that man.
[quote]
“Thou shalt not steal.” (Romans 13:9; Exodus 20:15; Leviticus 19:11; Deuteronomy 5:19; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20)[/quote]
You take away from him the reward for his own efforts of thought.
[quote]
“Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.” “The laborer is worthy of his reward.” (1st Timothy 5:18; 1st Corinthians 9:9; Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7; Leviticus 19:13; Deuteronomy 24:15; 25:4)[/quote]
So much did God consider intellectual property to be private property, that He even protected the copyright of His own revelations.
David J. Stewart wrote:
Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be conformed into Jesus’ likeness.”
[quote]Zeb wrote:
The Bible does NOT say anything about being chosen for salvation. [/quote]
David J. Stewart wrote:
The Bible does NOT say anything about being chosen for salvation.
[quote]zeb wrote:
His great knowledge of what will happen has nothing to do with him “choosing”
what will happen in advance.[/quote]
David J. Stewart wrote:
God knows in advance who will be saved and who won’t but He does NOT choose who will be saved or who won’t.
I already knew you had poor reading comprehension skills and no logical thinking ability, but it did come as a tiny bit of a surprise that you had no honor.
Not only could you not be bothered to actually read god’s word and form a coherent arguement on your own, but you decided to be a SLOTHFUL plagiarizer also.
Beyond being a slothful theif, you prove yourself to be a hypocrite, also. Do you want to make a guess at who made these statements mocking conspiracy nuts, and then used one of the nuttiest websites on the net to “proove God’s word”?
Check out some of the links from the front page of “your” evidence that god doesn’t predetermine our fate: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/
All your old favorites are there–Bush blew up the world trade center, Haliburton is working for the devil, illuminati, witchcraft, Micahel W. Smith is evil, Dolly Parton is evil (and not because of her tits), Elvis is evil, Billy Graham is evil, American Idol is evil, Aleister Crowley is evil, Prince is evil, REO Speedwagon is evil,Jerry Falwell is evil, C.S. Lewis is evil, Dr. Phil is evil (I’ll give you that one), Martin Luther is evil, Martin Luther King, Jr. is evil, the Christian Research institute is evil, the Promise Keepers are evil, Amy Grant is evil, Toby Mac is evil, POD is evil, Carmen is evil, DC Talk is evil, Johnny Cash is evil, Robert Schuller is evil, Mel Gibson is evil, Protestantism is evil,Catholocism is evil, Pat Robinson is evil, Paul Harvey is evil, the Salvation Army is evil, the Trinity Broadcasting Network is evil, Rick Warren is evil,Joel Osteen is evil, Christianity Today magazine is evil, Oprah is evil, the Left Behind books are evil,Gorbachev is the Antichrist, evils of fluoride, evils of genetically engineered foods, why all bibles except the KJV are evil, and MANY MANY MORE!
Despite the fact that you were only able to defend your God by stealing from a nutjob, I’ll answer your poorly thought out points.
You typed: Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be comformed into Jesus likeness.” No it doesn’t. You don’t get to make up your own definitions. Do you really think God needs you to lie and steal for him? Do you really think it is righteous to change the meaning of words and try to uses verses out of context?
First, use the full stanza from Romans 8:28-30 to see that God it isn’t talking about all of “us”. It’s talking about those he chose to call:
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Foreknow–To have foreknowledge of, especially by supernatural means or through revelation
Foreknowledge–Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience
Predestin-- 1. To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain.
2.Theology. To foreordain or elect by divine will or decree
Foreordain–To determine or appoint beforehand
So let’s clarify the verses:
“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God knew ahead of time he also decided ahead of time to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he decided on ahead of time, he called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
God decided ahead of time who he would call to him. Not who would come to him, but who he would CALL to him. Those are the ones he decided wanted to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus.
You and the kook can play word games, but the truth is clear.
God already knows that only 144,000 will be standing to fight at the end. He knows who he called, he knows what his purpose was, and he knows how many he needs.
[quote]
I don’t think you fully (or even patially) understand the concept of Hell.[/quote]
Says the guy who passes off information from KRAZY KOOKY KRISTIAN websites as his own.
Crappy analogy.
Imagine Micael Jackson taking one of the kids he was diddling and hanging him over a balcony rail 10 stories up, allowing the kid to get a really good grip on the railing before releasing him. When the kid eventually falls to his death, could Jackson honesty say he wasn’t the one responsible for the kid’s death? That he wanted the kid to come back to bed and love him?
It is a hard idea for me. Can you clarify these issues for me?
So Jesus wasn’t really God while he was down here with the sinners?
Or when he was being tempted by Satan?
OR is Satan not really evil, since God hung out with him while they figured out how to screw over Job?
And God is lying when he let his word say:
Jeremiah 23:24 “Do I not fill heaven and earth?”
Genesis 11:5 “The Lord came down to see the city”
Psalms 23:4 “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me”
And is the Holy Spirit not part of the Trinity, since the holy spirit fills Christians and Christians are sinners?
Oh, so once you are saved sin doesn’t count anymore? You can kill, STEAL (as noted above), rape, covet, fornicate, and all that stuff and it won’t keep you away from God?
That’s a pretty sweet deal.
How do you know? God can’t seem to keep up with him (or remember conversations he already had with him).
Job 1:6-8
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Job 2:1-3
1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Can’t you just see Satan and the other angels rolling their eyes as the senile old man asks where they’ve been and Satan knows old Job?
[quote]
In other words , it is a place created for those who did not want anything to do with God.[/quote]
It’s a place to toast those he decided not to call.
[quote]
When man fell, through Adam and Eve, they brought “sin” into the world.[/quote]
It wasn’t sinful for the devil/satan/serpent to tempt them into disobeying God?
[quote]Where do those go who sin?
The same place that is earmarked (he’s not there yet) for Satan…Hell.
God is NOT putting you there. In fact he sent his one and only son as an atonement for sin so that you could avoid going there.[/quote]
That is retarded. Why would God crucify his kid (or a third of himself) to forgive me of something that HE created, that HE predisposed us all to, that HE allowed Satan to convince Eve to commit, and that HE could have just snapped his fingers and done away with? Is your God just sadistic or stupid?
[quote]
How much more gracious could God have been than to send his “one and only son” as a sacrifice for you and me![/quote]
You are a sick and twisted individual. That is worse than pedophiles saying, “What is more loving than sharing your bed with a child?” You really think CRUCIFYING your son is a gracious gesture.
HOw much more gracious could God have been? He could have said, “I’m sorry that I didn’t create a Universe that mirrors the glory of heaven. I’m going to fix that right now. Please forgive me for my stupidity and cruelty these last few thousand years while I let you all suffer, played with you like ants in an antfarm, and put Satan on the earth to hurt you.”
That would be MUCH more gracious.
You sick twisted freak.
Seems like God screwed the pooch when designing us, doesn’t it?
[quote]
Only through accepting Jesus Christ as your savior are your sins forgiven!
And as we have seen, everyone is a sinner![/quote]
Was Job a sinner?
What about Noah?
What about all of those litte fetuses that get aborted? You think they are humans with souls. Therefore the are not worthy of heaven. They never got the chance to accept Jesus…THEY WILL BURN IN HELL!
Whatever. There is no hell. It’s a mis-translation, but that won’t scare anybody into giving money to the church.
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God created a perfect world and gave man free will to enjoy it.
Man fell and brought sin into the world as I have already pointed out.[/quote]
Can’t have foreknowledge AND freewill.
Satan brought sin into Eden.
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Therefore, when you say that God created billions of people he knew would never love him, you are stating a false hood.
He created people with free will. You may choose to love him, or choose not to love him.
Would it have made more sense if God MADE us love him?
That makes no sense does it?
Love is a gift that is freely given. You do not MAKE people love you.[/quote]
More sense than crucifying my own son. More sense than making breeding animals just to torture the VAST majority of them.
If your son told you he didn’t love you, would you pour gas on him and light him on fire? Would that make sense?
Just once, Zeb. Tell us why crucifying Jesus to forgive us is better than snapping his fingers to forgive us. Or even if your sick, twisted logic makes you yearn for the DEATH of Jesus to forgive us, why couldn’t he just have died in his sleep? What is glorious and gracious about torture? God made all the rules. God chose the mode of death. Your God is a sicko.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I agree that your eyes and ears can be fooled, but it is silly to think that this is the normal state of things.
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sure, we have ‘faith’ that our sense perceptions give us mostly accurate information about a mind-external universe…
not confused at all…
I have faith that my sense perceptions give me mostly accurate information…
here are some common philosophical questions:
what is good? what is beautiful? does God exist? does the world around us exist? what is a person? what is truth? what is evil? what are the limitations of science?
are these retarded questions? is it a waste of time to think about such things?
if so, why?
nope, there’s also the agnostic (i.e. I don’t have enough information to give a definitive answer) route…
also, someone could start with a ‘faith’ based axiom like “I have ‘faith’ that my sense perceptions give me mostly accurate information about a mind-external universe” (if my sense perceptions are accurate, it is also reasonable to believe blah, blah, blah)…
your proof in the non-existance of God is that you personally cannot, at present, sense God?
is this proof supposed to convince anyone but you?
no, same kind of faith…
is God unobservable? many people claim to have had observations of God and written these experiences down in books…some people have faith in what they read in these books (much like you trust in the writtings of various scientists)…
there are many claims to observations of God…it is possible that some of them could be accurate…
do you think it’s possible that some things might exist that are beyond our (current) sense perceptions (i.e. we can’t measure or observe them YET)?
have humans measured and observed EVERYTHING that exists? humans now know everything that exists?
so it’s impossible to directly observable energy?
if so, then is it possible that other things might exist that we can’t directly observe?
[quote]DPH wrote:
sure, we have ‘faith’ that our sense perceptions give us mostly accurate information about a mind-external universe…[/quote]
Our sense perceptions give us a very logical and consistent impression of the universe. At some point you have to draw the line and say “This much we must accept as true, otherwise there is no point in reasoning about much of anything.” Saying that this may all be an idiot’s dream or a computer simulation is a simple way to refute any argument about anything.
[quote]larryb wrote:
Our sense perceptions give us a very logical and consistent impression of the universe. At some point you have to draw the line and say “This much we must accept as true, otherwise there is no point in reasoning about much of anything.” Saying that this may all be an idiot’s dream or a computer simulation is a simple way to refute any argument about anything.
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yeah, that’s why I said “we have ‘faith’ that our sense perceptions give us mostly accurate information about a mind-external universe”…
[quote]DPH wrote:
larryb wrote:
Energy is the only thing that we can directly observe.
not according to lothario1132…he’s claiming otherwise…[/quote]
Semantics, my friend, semantics…
Our eyes detect electromagnetic energy – visible light, transmitted, as all electromagnetic energy, by photons. But the way our eyes detect that energy is by beeing AFFECTED by those photons.
Get it?
With hearing it’s the same thing – we “hear” a mechanic wave – kinetic energy – and our ears work through being affected by it (our eardrums move due to its effect).
Taste and smell come from chemical reactions – they are affected by chemical energy.
Touch is detecting electromagnetic (or kinetic) energy, again, by the way that energy affects our cells.
So, to sum it up: the only thing we can observe is the effects that energy has on our cells (in the eyes, ears, mouth, nose and skin).
If there was such a thing as a particle without energy, we would not be able to see, hear, taste, smell or feel it, because without energy to affect it, our body cannot detect anything.
[quote]hspder wrote:
So, to sum it up: the only thing we can observe is the effects that energy has on our cells (in the eyes, ears, mouth, nose and skin).
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do you think it may be possible for humans to observe space(three dimensions) and time? if so, what do you think space and time are made out of?
