[quote]Majin wrote:
ZEB wrote:
If someone has sex with both genders it’s called bisexual. Tell me how a guy who is actually a homosexual can enjoy sex with a woman?
How can you tell whether he enjoys it or not?[/quote]
I’m somewhat surprised that you cannot figure it out.
Tell me, how does someone who calls themselves a “homosexual” achieve an erection when having sex with a woman? For the fourth time a truly heterosexual is in capable of having sex with another man, how is it that so many homosexuals can have sex with a woman?
How do they become aroused if they are only attracted to someone of the same sex?
[quote]If a man is “in the closet” and at the same time is capable of having sex with a woman then that man is bisexual. He may prefer men, but he’s still bisexual.
3rd time. It only bothers me that you’re being intentionally annoying. If homosexuality would be as accepted as heterosexuality, then you could compare them like you do. But when there’s an obvious motive for them to hide for being persecuted or even their life you just sound ignorant.[/quote]
That’s total BUNK!
What you are saying is because all of the social pressures a man who calls himself a “homosexual” is able to achieve an erection with a woman.
Ha ha…that’s actually laughable.
A man is either aroused by that particular gender or not. What a very foolish argument that you’re attempting.
[quote]As I’ve stated on prior occasions by all means take out any and all information from the far right and far left. We are still left with a great amount of evidence which indicates that many who call themselves “homosexuals” can and do change to “heterosexual”.
We’re not left with anything but surveys on people who want to do anything to hide their sexual identity, conducted by practitioners that want nothing to do with science and perpetuated by religious lobbyists.[/quote]
Once again you’re simply spewing forth the crap fed to you by social liberals. While the following information has certainly been reported by religious groups and those tired of the “born that way” lie, the Byrd, Potts and company have no affiliation with those groups, you do understand the difference?
For example, if Harris does a poll which states that Hillary Clinton is leading in the race for the White House, she may site the poll but she had nothing to do with creating it.
The following information has nothing to do with religious folks:
"Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA:
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable."
And of course Dr. Spitzers landmark study from 2001:
"Dr. Robert Spitzer (2001)
Dr Spitzer is a psychiatry professor at Columbia University. He conducted a study of 143 ex-gays and 57 ex-lesbians who reported that they have become “straight.” 2 He reported his findings at a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association on 2001-MAY-9. He concluded, as a result of 45 minute interviews with each subject, that 66% of the males and 44% of the females had arrived at “good heterosexual functioning.”
According to Cnn.com, that term is defined as having been “in a sustained, loving heterosexual relationship within the past year, getting enough satisfaction from the emotional relationship with their partner to rate at least seven on a 10-point scale, having satisfying heterosexual sex at least monthly and never or rarely thinking of somebody of the same sex during heterosexual sex.”
When you get done digesting these two there are roughly 50 more I will post.
Oh the heck with it I’ll post them now:
HERE ARE THE STUDIES WHICH CLAIM CHANGE IS POSSIBLE
(May 9, 2001). Press Release, National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results: “Some Gays can Change.” Available at
“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.
Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
"The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated ? 58 unchanged) ?A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (unpublished PhD dissertation, Brigham Young University, on file with Brigham Young University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
??optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. ?at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts ? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts ? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Satinover, J., (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids MI: Baker.
These reports contradict claims that change is impossible. It would be more accurate to say that all the existing evidence suggests strongly that homosexuality is quite changeable.
?Each individual?s homosexuality is the likely result of a complex mixture of genetic, intrauterine, and extrauterine biological factors combined with familial and social factors as well as repeatedly reinforced choices.? (p. 245)
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Spitzer, Robert (May 2001) Psychiatry and Homosexuality, Wall St. Journal, A26.
“In the sample he studied, Spitzer concluded that many (homosexuals) made substantial changes (after gender affirmative therapy) in sexual arousal and fantasy–not merely behavior. Even subjects who made less substantial change believed it to be extremely beneficial.”
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford. ??we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)
Please read these studies and point out to me why you think that the authors are indeed lying. I am very serious about this and will not let this point go by the wayside.
Because if the authors are lying I will stop quoting them.
If you cannot do this then you are the one misrepresenting the facts. And you are the one LYING.
It might be time that you take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying “La la la la la” and rethink this whole thing.
Just as Lorisco stated, if one can suddenly decide they are homosexual after years of sex with the opposite sex, why can’t someone change from homosexual to heterosexual?
Oh that’s right, that spits in the face of social liberal and the powerful gay lobby’s who like to perpetuate the big “born that way” LIE!
I forgot, facts are not as important as pushing an agenda when it comes to homosexuality.
[quote]But as I’ve said before as well, even if one person changes how do you explain it? How many African Americans are able to change their skin color?
One. His name is Michael and he’s got a ranch.[/quote]
Well, I know that at least I have you thinking when you have to joke about such a question. The fact is you can’t give me a legitimate answer without abandoning the big “born that way” LIE.
Here’s the answer for you: If even one person can change, and thousands actually have, then it’s probably not genetic. And if 87% of all “homosexuals” have had and continue to have sex with someone from the other gender then their really bisexual (Hint: Males can only have sex when they’re aroused). And if it were “genetic” they would have discovered this homosexual gene by now as we are cracking the genetic code pretty readily.
You’re posting the same lies over and over again. It was already shown to you that some animals are quite capable of having sex with either gender. They’re not “homosexual” they’re bisexual.
Hey, just like humans huh?
Think about it.
I’ve already addressed this as well. People don’t choose consciously, however it is a developmental process which takes place early in life. Therefore, one can become attracted to another of the same sex without much conscious thought process at all.
This has what’s been found that the powerful gay lobby’s, social liberals and the liberal media do not want people to know. One or more of the following four things have occurred to those who call themselves “homosexual”:
-A domineering mother
-A distant father (mother) figure
-Was sexually molested
-Felt ostracized early as a youth, for whatever reason.
WRONG!
It can and is changed all the time. People go from being hetero to homo and from homosexual to heterosexual. And since you cannot respond intelligently to the many statistics that I posted I’ll have to assume that they are in fact correct.
But as I said if even one changes then it’s not genetic. For example a black person cannot change the color of her skin, now that’s genetic.
We don’t know that at all. We do know that the US Military still lists homosexuality as a mental illness. Now why do you think that is?
In fact before the APA was hijacked by powerful social liberals homosexuality was indeed considered a mental disorder. Because something is no longer politically correct does not mean that it’s actually correct.
Sure you do or you wouldn’t be bothering to try to respond to me regularly.
[quote]
But, what do you say to the many who have changed and are now happily married?
How do you know if they are happily married or when gays enjoy sex with women? Do you put on your invisible cloak and follow them for months? Can you read their thoughts?[/quote]
No, but apparently you and your ilk think that you can. There have been many surveys and reliable studies performed. These folks have been followed up with questionaires and have repeatedly stated that they are happily married.
They’ve gone from homosexual to heterosexual-PERIOD.
The fact that people like you don’t like it doesn’t mean squat to these folks.
[quote]But you still have no answer regarding those who have changed.
That’s too bad. If you decide that you really want to engage me at a meaningful level please do the following:
-
Give proof that homosexuality is genetic. Good luck with this one.
-
Refute with any sort of reliable facts that homosexuality is NOT more nurture than nature.
Until then you are just another member of the far left who feels that if they say something loud enough and long enough that it becomes the truth.
You mean like the Bible? How nice of you to tell me what I am by the way.[/quote]
No I mean like the 50 plus reliable doctors and scientists that I quoted above. Now get busy refuting each of them. If you can do this you will have the respect and attention of everyone following this thread. Until then you’re no more serious than the typical social liberal who screams “born that way” with no proof. And also dismisses reliable information as “all lies”. Children act that way, adults are supposed to put forth evidence. Get your fingers out of your ears and stop saying “la la la la”, you’re acting like a child, and making about as much sense.
