[quote]pushharder wrote:
The bottom line is your church AND Protestant churches have crossed the line MANY times. They are made up of sinful men and women regardless of whether or not they have been truly redeemed.
Sinful men and women are incapable of being infallible and/or sinless (in this life) even with the presence of the Holy Spirit. It’s that simple. Accept it and move on and quit with the history revisionism. You’re fooling no one who has studied history, my friend.[/quote]
This…
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Chris, you have flat out drunk the Kool Aid, bud.
The bottom line is your church AND Protestant churches have crossed the line MANY times. They are made up of sinful men and women regardless of whether or not they have been truly redeemed.
Sinful men and women are incapable of being infallible and/or sinless (in this life) even with the presence of the Holy Spirit. It’s that simple. Accept it and move on and quit with the history revisionism. You’re fooling no one who has studied history, my friend.[/quote]
I have no clue what you’re talking about. You’re just revisioning my comments!
I will be the first one to point out that individuals have crossed the line and have sinned (I disagree with the infallible comment and sinning has nothing to do with infallibility). I have said this dozens of times, and I’m far more critical of the Catholic Church than any “enemy” of the Church is, I just don’t criticize it for things it didn’t actually do.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
secular activity[/quote]
Never said that.
[/quote]
Horseshit.
You said the Spanish Inquisition was strictly a product of the Spanish state.[/quote]
No, I said the State put the heretics to death as it was the State that passed law that made heresy a capital offense, the clergy was not responsible for capture and killing people.
The Office of Inquisition (contemporary called the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith) helped in determining who was a heretic. Before that you just had Lords and such with no theological training for the purpose of judging a heretic (some people are just stupid and say something wrong without know they are wrong, doesn’t make them a heretic, means they just have been taught correctly). They would just kill people they THOUGHT were heretics. The Office of Inquisition came to determine whether the people in custody were in fact heretics.
The interesting thing about the Office of Inquisition is that they were routinely at the end of the day found at the business end of a mob. Why? They were too lenient for the subjects of the Spanish Monarch.
I never said this. I said they never killed a heretic. The Office of Inquisition judges people as heretics all the time, nary a hair on their head gets touched. It was the State that deemed heresy a crime punishable by death.
Let me give you an example, a man is busted for a crime, say j-walking. Now, that man is arrested and brought in front of a judge. And, let’s say that the U.S. Legislation has determined anyone found guilty of j-walking is to be killed. Now, the judge is presented the evidence, DA has precedent for the charge, the evidence is good enough to convict him. And, beyond a shadow of a doubt the Judge finds the man guilty of j-walking. The judge is just in ruling that he is in fact guilty of the crime of j-walking.
Now, the man is taken to jail, waits for the executioner, and is put to death. Now, is the Judge responsible for his death just because the state’s punishment maybe too severe? I don’t think so, I think I would have serious trouble with such punishment, but I cannot blame the Judge for ruling correctly just because the punishment is too harsh.
NB: The stance of the Catholic Bishops of America - my personal stance further - is that the death penalty is not appropriate for the current situation in the prison system.
I am, Nation,
Your obedient Servant,
Chris IV (Serviam)
P.S. Though it seems as some emotion has entered the debate, I hope we can keep this as a civil discourse.
P.P.S. I do not mean to seem as I am indifferent to the sins committed by Catholics and men (more the former in degree), actually the complete opposite: I have a horror of sin. Sometimes I cannot help but bring suffering on myself for the sins of others and it is the reason why I care about my faith so much to “waste” time on the internet defending it and IRL defending it; all because I wish my fellow brethren to persevere and not experience eternal torment, that is eternal separation from God.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
“annulments”[/quote]
If they are annulled the marriage is found to not be a valid marriage. So there technically isn’t an actual marriage. Though that does beg the question, why wasn’t it a valid marriage?
Here are some likely possibilities:
All things that Catholic Pastors are responsible for in the end.
I am, Nation,
Your obedient Servant,
Chris IV (Serviam)
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I am, Nation,
Your obedient Servant,
Chris IV (Serviam)[/quote]
This stuff makes you look pretentious. Stop it at once, this is an internet board. Key part being internet. This ain’t srs business, pal.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have said this dozens of times, and I’m far more critical of the Catholic Church than any “enemy” of the Church is, I just don’t criticize it for things it didn’t actually do.[/quote]
This stuff makes you a liar.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I am, Nation,
Your obedient Servant,
Chris IV (Serviam)[/quote]
This stuff makes you look pretentious. Stop it at once, this is an internet board. Key part being internet. This ain’t srs business, pal.
[/quote]
Are you criticizing me for having a level of decorum?
[quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have said this dozens of times, and I’m far more critical of the Catholic Church than any “enemy” of the Church is, I just don’t criticize it for things it didn’t actually do.[/quote]
This stuff makes you a liar.[/quote]
How does it make me a liar?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
The Office of Inquisition (contemporary called the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith) helped in determining who was a heretic. Before that you just had Lords and such with no theological training for the purpose of judging a heretic (some people are just stupid and say something wrong without know they are wrong, doesn’t make them a heretic, means they just have been taught correctly). They would just kill people they THOUGHT were heretics. The Office of Inquisition came to determine whether the people in custody were in fact heretics.
[/quote]
And, pray tell, how did they determine that?
Specifically, what rules did apply and what organization did invent those rules and hold these trials.
Because it seems to me that you hop very cavalierly over the fact that the CC invented a trial where the defendant had practically no rights, could be detained indefinitely or tortured and where the Inquisitor was prosecutor and judge all by himself.
Does this look familiar?
Law 25.
(26)The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody,{8} provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs,as actual robbers and murderers of souls and thieves of the sacraments of God and Christian faith, to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, {9} and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them,as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.
Law 26.
(27) And the house, in which a male or female heretic shall be discovered, shall be levelled with the ground, never to be rebuilt; unless it is the master of the house who shall have arranged the discovery of the heretics. And if the master of the house owns other houses in the same neighborhood,all of the other houses shall in like manner be destroyed, and the goods that shall be found in the house and the others related to it shall be dispersed to the populace, and shall belong to whoever carries them off, unless the removers shall be appointed by law. Above all, the master of the house,besides incurring eternal infamy, must pay the government or locality fifty pounds Imperial in coin; if unable to pay, he shall suffer life imprisonment. The borough where the heretics are arrested or discovered shall pay the government of the state a hundred pounds;and a manor shall pay fifty,and the regions adjoining manors and states, fifty.
Law 27.
(28)Whoever shall be caught giving any male or female heretic counsel, help, or favor, besides the other punishments mentioned duly in their logical places in other passages of this decree,shall become infamous by that same law, and shall be admitted neither to public office, nor public affairs, nor the election of persons to these, nor may he testify in a legal process; to that extent shall his incapacity to testify go,that he shall neither bequeath legacies to heirs nor inherit them himself. No one shall be compelled to respond to any business dealings initiated by him but he shall be so compelled by others. If he be by chance a judge, his sentence shall prove nothing, nor shall he hear any case. If he be an attorney, his defence in court will never be allowed to prevail. If he be a notary, the legal documents drawn up by him shall be utterly without validity. Those who give ear to the false doctrines of heretics shall be punished like heretics.
Cliff notes:
The Pope ordered all Christian Lords and Kings to aid the Inquisition, to carry out its verdicts and specifically ordered the Inquisitors to use force to obtain a confession.
And of course to ruin their livelihood, flatten the house they lived in, interrogate anyone who might have listened to them, bar their offspring from any public office, BUT other than that the CC had virtually nothing to do with the Inquisition.
Nothing
what
so
ever.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Are you criticizing me for having a level of decorum?
…
How does it make me a liar? [/quote]
No, I’m criticizing you for only doing it when you think it makes you look cool. Either do it consistently (and still risk looking like an ass) or don’t bother.
It makes you a liar because your statement is flatly untrue. If you were capable of being critical you would not be a Catholic. Period.