Home Defense Part 2

Off Topic
61

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
I read all of you guys saying you wouldn’t go hunt the bad guys down in your house, but what if you or your wife hear a noise in the middle of the night and don’t know what it is? Do you go check it out or automatically call the cops? Do you take your weapon with you?[/quote]

I stand outside our bedroom doors with my weapon, at the top of the stairs. Depending on what I hear then will prompt what I do.

My house is small enough where from there I’m hearing most things, and my floors creek like crazy, so I’ll know if they are coming up stairs rather quickly. [/quote]

I guess my point is that I wouldn’t be able to go back to sleep unless I went and checked from room to room and was satisfied the whole house was clear, no matter if I heard anything myself or not. In the course of doing so I may come across someone I wasn’t expecting to be there. I’m certainly approaching the situation as if I will find an intruder, even if I think it’s very unlikely (which is why the police aren’t involved).

62

Somewhat related topic, but something that saved some friends of ours when an arab gentleman crawled through a window intent on something besides robbery was a simple deadbolt on the bedroom door.

It was unexpected and gave them time to get to their rifles. It’s on my “to do” list, but we still have kiddos who get scared at night and would pound on the door if it was locked.

63

Not as High-tech as Mr. Jewbacca but I do have alarms on windows and doors, and it would not take long for me to know if someone is in the house. Nothing is 100% but a deterrent of any kind will buy you time. As for what happens next I always keep my cell and Mr G20 by the bed then sit and wait.

64

[quote]Testy1 wrote:
My wife asked me to remove them, so for her peace of mind I did. If you look at the stats for home invasions in my area, almost zero happen when someone is home.

I have a safe, there is no such thing as something a kid can’t access if they are determined. IMO a gun in a safe is almost as useless as no gun at all. I may reintroduce my .22 revolver and a fingerprint safe but that is not much of a deterrent. The only other handgun I have is a contender single shot.[/quote]

Fair enough…

Home invasions are typically done on purpose. As in they are coming in to steal your drugs or massive cash stores they know are their. Once in awhile you’ll get the loonytune’s that come in to pull some Manson type shit, but that is very few and far between.

I’ve never met anyone that is going to contemplate kicking in a door of a family’s house, but it happens. Certain gangs are famous for it. That said, it is normally someone that has something they want.

At least this is what I’ve been told. Most kids doing a B&E are going to do it when no one is home. Although I’ve had my car robbed in front of my house before, with my dog sleeping through it, and he had a good ear…

I live on a busy enough street where this type of thing isn’t a major concern for me, but I’m not opposed to being prepared

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
I read all of you guys saying you wouldn’t go hunt the bad guys down in your house, but what if you or your wife hear a noise in the middle of the night and don’t know what it is? Do you go check it out or automatically call the cops? Do you take your weapon with you?[/quote]

I stand outside our bedroom doors with my weapon, at the top of the stairs. Depending on what I hear then will prompt what I do.

My house is small enough where from there I’m hearing most things, and my floors creek like crazy, so I’ll know if they are coming up stairs rather quickly. [/quote]

I guess my point is that I wouldn’t be able to go back to sleep unless I went and checked from room to room and was satisfied the whole house was clear, no matter if I heard anything myself or not. In the course of doing so I may come across someone I wasn’t expecting to be there. I’m certainly approaching the situation as if I will find an intruder, even if I think it’s very unlikely (which is why the police aren’t involved).[/quote]

LOL, I’m gonna sit on those stairs until sunrise you best believe. There would be no sleep in my future either.

65

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
LOL, I’m gonna sit on those stairs until sunrise you best believe. There would be no sleep in my future either. [/quote]

You’re putting yourself in a tactical disadvantage if you sit on the stairs. Better to wait by the stair where you can hear/see if someone is coming up while they cannot.

66

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
LOL, I’m gonna sit on those stairs until sunrise you best believe. There would be no sleep in my future either. [/quote]

You’re putting yourself in a tactical disadvantage if you sit on the stairs. Better to wait by the stair where you can hear/see if someone is coming up while they cannot. [/quote]

I mean, I’m not being 100% literal when I say sit on the stairs, but the way my stairs are is a 90 degree, so they wouldn’t know I was there until it was too late anyway.

67

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I mean, I’m not being 100% literal when I say sit on the stairs, but the way my stairs are is a 90 degree, so they wouldn’t know I was there until the street howlitzer blew a hole in them. [/quote]

I fixed that for ya.

69

Get a dog.

No really, fair play to those who have the laws permitting them to defend their homes via lethal force if necessary, but unless you’re playing an ego trip/power fantasy, you want to prevent the situation ever happening if possible because its still a legal calamity and killing someone probably does the psyche no good even when justified. Most people don’t want to break into a home when there is a big fuck off dog barking its nut off behind the door/fence/gate. The bigger and louder the better preferably, although pitbulls and shepherds specifically seem to have some universal perception as “fuck off quick” dogs.

Even if you’re not really that hot on having a pet, its a multi tier investment: you get a mauling machine, an intruder alarm, a intruder deterrent and a distraction for your kids all in one.

71

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Get a dog.

No really, fair play to those who have the laws permitting them to defend their homes via lethal force if necessary, but unless you’re playing an ego trip/power fantasy, you want to prevent the situation ever happening if possible because its still a legal calamity and killing someone probably does the psyche no good even when justified. Most people don’t want to break into a home when there is a big fuck off dog barking its nut off behind the door/fence/gate. The bigger and louder the better preferably, although pitbulls and shepherds specifically seem to have some universal perception as “fuck off quick” dogs.

Even if you’re not really that hot on having a pet, its a multi tier investment: you get a mauling machine, an intruder alarm, a intruder deterrent and a distraction for your kids all in one. [/quote]

If I’m an intruder I can easily and quietly kill your dog especially if he is outdoors. Guarantee it.[/quote]

Sure. A dog is part of a layered defense. And dogs also work best in groups of two or three. (They are pack animals, after all.)

My aged has two dobermans, for example. And a shotgun. And an alarm. And hardened doors and windows.

72

What are some good options for keeping guns safely away from kids but still easily accessible in case of emergency? It seems like the only solution you hear about is a gun safe but what does that do when you need it fast?

Also I was able to get access to my dads gun safe on a regular basis when I was 13 or so without them knowing about it so I’m not convinced those are reliable either

74

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Well, I’m not Jewbacca, but here’s my $.02, for what little it may be worth. Long guns in general and shotguns specifically outperform pistols in almost every respect except concealability and close quarter manoeuvrability. [/quote]

I’m NOT picking on Batman but there are some inaccurate statements made here thjat I cannot just let ride. The scenario is home defense so one does not need to concern himself with concealibility. In terms of close quarter combat both weapons mentioned are pretty much equal. I’ll explain. Hold a pistol out at arms length as if you were going to shoot it. Note how far out there the barrel is. Then shoulder an 18" barreled shotgun. The barrels are practically positioned at the same point which makes them pretty much equal in terms of CQB. One thing of note, a ‘little ol’ 20 gage shotgun, shooting a slug, is twice as powerful as a .44 Magnum handgun (look that up if you don’t believe me) I’ll take the shotty with a weapon light on it.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
00 buckshot is less likely to over-penetrate than a large calibre pistol round, making it less likely that you will inadvertently shoot non-combatants.[/quote]

NOT accurate… 00 Buck in a 2 3/4 shell is generally comprised of 9 .33 caliber pellets. A 9mm round is .35 caliber. A 00 Buck shell is basically the same as a 9 round burst from a MP5 but all at once. The FBI 4 layer denim tests consistantly show 00 buck to penetrate the recommended 15-18" in ballistic gel. SO yeah, it will over penetrate walls and shit. THAT"S precisely WHY we use 00 buck. Burglar hiding behind your couch? BLAM, shoot right thru it. So one will say " I’ll use bird shot". Ok so since a shotgun round shot from an 18" barrel expands roughly 1" per yard it goes down range, upclose shots basically are a solid mass of pellets, similar to a slug.

Regardless of ones chosen weapon to defend themselves, GET SOME TRAINING! TRUST ME when I say you probably don’t know shit, or the stuff you do know is wrong or inaccurate. Do NOT rely on bro science and urban legends. There is so much more to this stuff than you think. TRAINING is the key. You will NOT rise to the occasion and be the hero. You will default to the lowest level of training you have MASTERED. When your life is on the line, you had better have your stuff straight. There’s 3 battles… the gun battle, the emotional battle and the Legal battle. You better have a plan for all 3. hope this helps.

75

Like pushharder said if you have guns and kids you need to teach them. My parents did it for me and said we never had a problem. Gunvault makes a good product that requires a sequence of buttons be pushed to open it. With practice you can get pretty quick. It can set on a nightstand. Weapon selection and round selection is always a give and take situation, in my opinion. A PD published a study that, if I recall correctly, showed the best round for interior walls was 5.56 softtip. If it went through an interior wall it fragmented and this mitigated damage on the other side. Hollow point handgun rounds went through several interior walls intact and with plenty of force left over. The shotgun slug bulldozed through everything, so people on the other side were still in danger. however, anytime you are shooting in your home it is probably a dangerous situation.

76

I agree with you StrengthDawg,“GET SOME TRAINING”, (and then train your family). One of the best trips I ever took was with some good friends to Front Sight…one of the largest firearms training facilities in the world. It is located about 40 min. west of Las Vegas, Nevada. You can receive training in handgun, shotgun, rifle, sniper, knife, hand to hand, etc. They actually train you in clearing houses, rooms, doorways, etc. Guaranteed you will walk away from there shooting like a Navy Seal. They also teach you how and why to keep a situation from escalating and what to do and say if you end up having to use deadly force.

It is a great investment and would be a great vacation. You can take your wife and kids or go with friends. We all became lifetime members and now we can go anytime we want. There are other places closer to home that I have trained, but those trips to the desert are unforgettable.

To graduate from the first handgun course you will have to draw from a concealed position and place two shots in the thoracic cavity in less than 1.5 sec., you get 1.8 sec. for the ocular cavity…sounds impossible but you can do it. Plan to shoot at least 1,000 rounds in addition to hours of dry fire practice. It doesn’t matter what weapon you have if you are not trained and prepared to use it.

77

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What are some good options for keeping guns safely away from kids but still easily accessible in case of emergency? It seems like the only solution you hear about is a gun safe but what does that do when you need it fast?

Also I was able to get access to my dads gun safe on a regular basis when I was 13 or so without them knowing about it so I’m not convinced those are reliable either[/quote]

My solution was to TEACH my kids about the guns at an early age and on into adolescence. I would periodically allow them – actually, I made them – to handle all of my weapons while unloaded. They ran their hands all over them, opened and closed cylinders, bolts and magazines. I wanted them to satisfy any and all curiosity about them while I was supervising them. That prevented them from messing with them at other times.

I also took them shooting and hunting so they could see what a bullet was capable of doing. I even had my son at the age of four help me gut a deer after watching me shoot it; we physically traced the path of the bullet from entry to exit wound. He knew from early on that a gun was a lethal weapon.

We also rehearsed the NRA kids safety mantra about what to do when encountering a gun while alone. We chanted it over and over again out loud many times. They knew it as well as their own names:

  1. STOP!

  2. DON’T TOUCH!

  3. LEAVE THE AREA!

  4. TELL AN ADULT!

Consequently, I never had to lock up my weapons.[/quote]

Good Call pushharder…I couldn’t agree more!

78

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Well, I’m not Jewbacca, but here’s my $.02, for what little it may be worth. Long guns in general and shotguns specifically outperform pistols in almost every respect except concealability and close quarter manoeuvrability. [/quote]

I’m NOT picking on Batman but there are some inaccurate statements made here thjat I cannot just let ride. The scenario is home defense so one does not need to concern himself with concealibility. In terms of close quarter combat both weapons mentioned are pretty much equal. I’ll explain. Hold a pistol out at arms length as if you were going to shoot it. Note how far out there the barrel is. Then shoulder an 18" barreled shotgun. The barrels are practically positioned at the same point which makes them pretty much equal in terms of CQB. One thing of note, a ‘little ol’ 20 gage shotgun, shooting a slug, is twice as powerful as a .44 Magnum handgun (look that up if you don’t believe me) I’ll take the shotty with a weapon light on it.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
00 buckshot is less likely to over-penetrate than a large calibre pistol round, making it less likely that you will inadvertently shoot non-combatants.[/quote]

NOT accurate… 00 Buck in a 2 3/4 shell is generally comprised of 9 .33 caliber pellets. A 9mm round is .35 caliber. A 00 Buck shell is basically the same as a 9 round burst from a MP5 but all at once. The FBI 4 layer denim tests consistantly show 00 buck to penetrate the recommended 15-18" in ballistic gel. SO yeah, it will over penetrate walls and shit. THAT"S precisely WHY we use 00 buck. Burglar hiding behind your couch? BLAM, shoot right thru it. So one will say " I’ll use bird shot". Ok so since a shotgun round shot from an 18" barrel expands roughly 1" per yard it goes down range, upclose shots basically are a solid mass of pellets, similar to a slug.

Regardless of ones chosen weapon to defend themselves, GET SOME TRAINING! TRUST ME when I say you probably don’t know shit, or the stuff you do know is wrong or inaccurate. Do NOT rely on bro science and urban legends. There is so much more to this stuff than you think. TRAINING is the key. You will NOT rise to the occasion and be the hero. You will default to the lowest level of training you have MASTERED. When your life is on the line, you had better have your stuff straight. There’s 3 battles… the gun battle, the emotional battle and the Legal battle. You better have a plan for all 3. hope this helps.

[/quote]

Thanks for setting me straight on a few things. If I have, yet again, been talking out of my ass I apologize.

Just to clarify, when mentioning concealability, I wasn’t meaning in a home defence situation, but rather as a general feature of a pistol as opposed to a long gun as my initial statement was the generalization that long guns outperform in EVERY respect.

Regarding manoeuvrability: for starters I don’t think manoeuvrability is super critical to home defence as I believe the safest plan in most situations to take up a static, defensible position, call the police and hold. This won’t always be practical, but generally it’s a good bet IMO. That being said, I respectfully disagree with some of your statements about how a pistol and a shotgun are equal in terms of CQB. If your pistol is punched out at full extension, your statement is true. However, I would submit a pistol can be sucked in close to the body (while still allowing room for the slide to travel) and still be in a position to fire if you suddenly find yourself too close to a threat to punch out and pick up your sights properly. Furthermore, if you should, for some reason, find yourself grappled with an assailant (not a good plan, but shit happens) I would say it’s likely going to be more practical to get pistol shots into him than shotgun at bad breath range. None of this is at all intended as an argument in favour of the pistol as a better choice overall.

Regarding over-penetration, thanks for correcting my misconceptions on the subject. Jewbacca mentioned the “bird shot slug” effect in an earlier post as well.

Regarding training, I couldn’t agree with your statements more. Any weapon system is only as good as the person operating it and there is more to these things than most people realize (myself included). All of the standard “I’m just a dumbass on the internet disclaimers” apply to all of the above statements.

79

Even if you know the cops won’t make it to your house in time, dial 911 and toss the phone aside. Start yelling to the home invader that you have phoned the police, that you are armed,order him to leave your property and say you are in fear of your life. This will help cover your ass.

80

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Thanks for setting me straight on a few things. If I have, yet again, been talking out of my ass I apologize. [/quote]

No worries man. ALL knowledge in IMPUTED, meaning someone must tell us things. Hell, we don’t even know our own names as a child, we must be told it. :slight_smile:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Regarding manoeuvrability: for starters I don’t think manoeuvrability is super critical to home defence as I believe the safest plan in most situations to take up a static, defensible position, call the police and hold. This won’t always be practical, but generally it’s a good bet IMO…[/quote]

You would be correct 99.9% of the time. Short of a hostage situation trying to clear your own house is a bad idea. You doin’t know how many perps are in your house. Odds are it aint just one guy… Not only that while you are out playing cop, someone can then take a hostage or get in behind you in which nothing good will come from this. During a home invasion, you need to get all the family behind and off to the side of you if at all possible. They need to be on the phone with the cops. You are the line in the sand, and by God no one is getting past that line.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
That being said, I respectfully disagree with some of your statements about how a pistol and a shotgun are equal in terms of CQB. If your pistol is punched out at full extension, your statement is true. However, I would submit a pistol can be sucked in close to the body (while still allowing room for the slide to travel) and still be in a position to fire if you suddenly find yourself too close to a threat to punch out and pick up your sights properly. Furthermore, if you should, for some reason, find yourself grappled with an assailant (not a good plan, but shit happens) I would say it’s likely going to be more practical to get pistol shots into him than shotgun at bad breath range. None of this is at all intended as an argument in favour of the pistol as a better choice overall.
[/quote]

This is where that training comes into play. If I was a bad guy in your scenario, I would wait till you come out looking for me. I’d light your eyes up with my 200 lumen tac light, blinding you for up to 5 min and have my way with you, maybe your ol lady depending on how cute she is. :slight_smile: OR you’d prolly not “pie the corner” and I’d grab your gun, push it up under your neck and make you shoot yourself in the face / head.,another easily done maneuvor. :slight_smile: (BTW, NEVER try to pull a gun away from someone. They have the grip and you will pull the trigger on yourself. Always push the gun back into the person and make them shoot themselves if you find yourself in this shitty position) Yeah, I know I sound like a fucking arm chair commando but this shit is real y’all.
Here’s the cool part about the shotgun. Any self respecting shotgun operator will mount a single point bungee sling on his / her shot gun. ** do not put a regular sling on it, those will get in the way of racking rounds ok** Now, If a person grabs the shot gun because I was a dumb ass and want to clear my house, I have two hands on the thing and it is attached via the sling. I can simply push the barrel into your teeth, knocking them down your throat or I can stab you with the barrel. (some shotties have that nasty breaching attachment that will make some nasty marks on a mofo) Or I can jerk the weapon back and butt stroke your ass. OR I can use the gun as a makeshift shield to keep you at distance. TONS of options. Plus I can shoot from the hip just like a pistol. One thing about shooting up close and personal… the shotgun goes boom assuming theres a round in the pipe. On a semi auto pistol, if you rack the slide back just a tad,which is likely during something like this, you take the round out of battery and render the fireing mechanism null and void. Again, arm chair commando shit but it has happened. Stick to your hunker down plan and this will be a moot point but I digress. :slight_smile: