So ATP based on this and other posts of yours you favor fast reps with big weights ? The next question is how many reps , sets and days between workouts?
Scott
I have no doubt that McGuff has been wrong about some things. Anyone who puts a lot of words on paper or video, and publishes them for scrutiny is likely to find themself in that situation at some point. I still value his opinion on things related to exercise. I donāt treat everything that he as ever said or written as the gospel truth.
As for the study you cite, the relevance to the efficacy Super Slow training isnāt that clear, because the study made no comparison of training outcomes between slow and high speed training. In fact, no high speed training was done. Everyone in the study did the same kind of conventional speed strength training with conventional exercises. Then the impact on muscle activity was characterized during a series of one-repetition, maximum-effort isokinetic tests. The results are a comparison of neural activity, before and after conventional training.
It should be noted that the neural inhibition that was observed was most pronounced in untrained subjects. That deficit (relative to a fast concentric contraction) diminished or went away after heavy resistance training, even though none of the resistance training was done a high speed.
Also, the tests were done isokinetically at speeds of 30 degrees/second and 240 degrees per second, using a leg extension with 80 degrees of movement. So those speeds correspond to repetition durations of 2.7 seconds and 0.33 seconds. So both test speeds were faster than super slow reps, and the fast case was faster than most people train conventionally.
I agree!
That is why I mentioned this would cause such ilk to pause and think.
Neural inhibition is problematic if an achievement goal is conditioning the musculoskeletal system.
What causes neural inhibition?
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a heavier percentage of oneās repetition maximum.
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supra-maximal eccentrics
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stretch positions
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pain
I am sure other neural inhibition exist I fail to list.
No doubt they are not conducive to productive training experiences, but rather self-protective in nature.
Deliberately slowing the concentric will provoke neural inhibition. Likewise, very slow eccentrics will provoke even fewer muscle fibers firing. These very slow eccentrics result in severely under loaded portions of the range of movement.
You do not want under loaded areas.
Hardly
Experience
Huh??
Scott
You asked 2 questions of me!
I gave to you 2 precise one-word answers
I donāt know why I waste my time trying by to converse with you ?
Scott
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Because I am interesting
And
Discuss meaningful topics
It is pretty well understood that eccentrics are energetically less demanding and recruit less muscle fiber for the same level of force. And yet, many studies show that eccentric actions produce strength and hypertrophy improvements similar to, if not better than concentric actions. So whatever level neural inhibition is associated with eccentric contractions, it cannot be a decisive negative factor for training outcomes.
Also, you seem to want to use that study to argue that super slow eccentrics are inferior. However, I would note that similar levels of neural inhibition were seen for both the slow and fast eccentric cases. This can be seen in the results on the left side of Figure 2 (follow the links to the full text of the study). In other words, there was no clear evidence in the study you cited which showed that slowing down the eccentric increased the level of inhibition.
You also seem to be suggesting that heavy loads are bad because they increase inhibition. However, the main conclusion of the study was that conventional heavy resistance training actually reduced the level of neural inhibition seen the trained subjects, i.e, it improved the neural input when doing both slow and fast eccentrics, and slow concentric movements.
The training program that was used to obtain this presumably desirable outcome was this:
The training consisted of 14 wk of progressive, heavy-resistance strength training (38 training sessions). All training was surveyed and supervised by the authors of the study. Training loads ranged between 6ā10 repetition maximum (RM), except for the first 10 days (5 sessions), in which slightly lower loadings were used (10ā15 RM). Very heavy loadings (6ā8 RM, increased number of sets) were used in the final 4 wk of the study. Obligatory training exercises were1) hack squat, 2) incline leg press,3) isolated knee extension, 4) hamstring curls, and 5) calf raises. For the hack squat, 4 sets were performed each session, whereas all other exercises were performed in 4 sets in weeks 1ā10, followed by 5 sets in the final 4 wks.
So I presume that the authorās of the study would not advise people to avoid heavy lifting because of adverse training outcomes.
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AA,
I presume little about exercise.
You seem to be interested in taking up the mantle of discrediting my posts, which is okay, if you include logic and facts upon such disagreements. I enjoy your brave banter. As you see, I take very few stuck-in-concrete stances about resistance training. Lots of things work, for a while and while in the bloom of youth.
It is as you say , a well-known fact that muscle fiber spindles and muscle golgi tendon organs
have an inhibitory function. This is a self-protective measure. As resistance loads increase this type of inhibition is more pronounced. However, as the study states, this type of inhibition is somewhat trainable.
Hi atp_4_me,
I would be seriously interested to hear your thoughts on what type of routine might actually work (instead of what doesnāt), in your opinion?
What do your own training regimen look like?
Have you found anything in your own experiences of training, that actually contradict study findings?
If you get a straight answer from him on this you should get into detective work, ha ha !
Scott
Thanks for your kind request for my personal training information.
I must begin by saying I started lifting a long time ago, over 50 years now, when my 1st cousin came from New York to visit kinfolks in the Appalachian mountains. He was a big ole boy who could press 185 with 1-arm while holding his girlfriend in his other arm.
My grandfather , another huge man, could back press a hay wagon while simultaneously getting a wagon wheel off to grease. My grandfather, nicknamed āPawā and his brother were NFL offensive tackle sized men. He was friends with another giant sized strongman from the mountains of Toccoa Ga., who was a believer in variable resistance ie. Quarter squats and top deadlifts.
Mr, Peterson,
I am a minimalist in the vein of Mark Berry, or JC Hise.
I am well past the low hanging Fruitage of resistance training. My goals are strength, safety, and health, and not in that particular order.
Believe it or not, I NEED only 3-4 heavy sets of resistance training weekly to bi-weekly. They are heavy sets and intense. I believe in variable resistance per Arthur Jones. I like cammed Nautilus machines. Properly equipped, they are hard to beat.
For example, on my Nautilus Leverage Leg Press, I slide the seat position forward to maximize my hipās range of motion. I have found range of motion very important for full range strength manifestation. Do not forsake full range of lifting. Isometrics have a role too, but not as a replacement to full range of movement.
I utilize heavy resistance bands to facilitate variable resistance on the leg press. Resistance bands invoke little neural inhibition in my experience. 1 set of as many reps in 30 seconds per alactic protocol.
Ditto other cammed Nautilus tools.
I train large muscle areas like glutes, quads, Lats, and traps.
I forsook my Double Nautilus chest machine for resistance bands recently due to shear stress on the shoulders. I utilize a Cook bar for a lunge/chop/chest press. This blows the Nautilus chest press away in all aspects.
I even utilize bands on my Powertec row/pulldown machine.
3-4 all out sets weekly mainly. Warmups a plenty.
But more importantly, aerobic conditioning is the feel good tool. But most in HiT are brainwashed with anti-cardiovascular propaganda, so I donāt care anymore.
Sorry for being long winded.
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Nice job Lieutenant Columbo !! Case solved!!
Scott
Good stuff/resist the dogma!
You should consider trying minimalist 531 once in a while -similar ethos
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Note at the 5 minute mark, you will see the Cook bar being used with the Nautilus Freedom trainer as a chest press. Best ever chest press, and serratus. Developer. However, the idea of my offset chest press came from Nautilus.
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