Hillary: All Washed Up?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, what you focused on is some idea that the black community as a whole may think negatively of these men simply because they happen to label themselves “conservative”.

That is where the stupidity lies.[/quote]

They do think negatively of conservative blacks - much more so than liberal blacks.

Has Obama been called an Uncle Tom? If he has, I haven’t heard it. I have heard it said of Keyes, Thomas, and Williams. Williams catches it on a regular basis.

But keep your eyes closed. God forbid you see shit from a different perspective.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Gee, how many white guys do you think would be chosen who COULD NOT PLAY THE SPORT WELL? Why do you seem to think that acknowledging a race has been disadvantaged and focusing on aiding those WHO ARE CAPABLE and also seem to be of that race means the same as “privilege someone because of their race to the exclusion of other meritorious reasons”?[/quote]

Red herring. That wasn’t the question or the issue.

Question is: would it be ok to pick a white guy on the basis that whites are under-represented the position?

Also, a straw man - I never indicated that “acknowledging a race has been disadvantaged and focusing on aiding those WHO ARE CAPABLE and also seem to be of that race means the same as “privilege someone because of their race to the exclusion of other meritorious reasons”?”

I never said that nor argued it. Nor does it apply to Obama’s candidacy.

You aren’t so good with the sticking to what people argued thing, are you?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Fast forward to 2008 - a black candidate isn’t held back from running for the Presidency. Obama has equality of opportunity - as he has had all his life. He hasn’t been held back.[/quote]

Yet people like to pretend he was. He seems to have had a far more privileged life than I.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Yet people like to pretend he was. He seems to have had a far more privileged life than I.[/quote]

Exactly. Between Barack and Michelle Obama, they have four Ivy League degrees, income near a million dollars per year, and live in a home worth ~$1.5 million. This doesn’t count private education before college.

Good for them - they earned it. I don’t begrudge them any of it.

But it doesn’t exactly make the case that Obama deserves votes on the basis to correct the sins that “blacks have been held back”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< No, what you focused on is some idea that the black community as a whole may think negatively of these men simply because they happen to label themselves “conservative”.

That is where the stupidity lies.[/quote]

Oh my friend, you have not been paying attention to what’s been going on. Conservative blacks are widely reviled among blacks and primitive or not the terms liberal and conservative still apply.

Racism in every form is a destructive affront to the HUMAN race which includes all people. people are people regardless of what geographic region they originate from. Wouldn’t it be tremendous if we could all recognize that. If you and I were to become enemies over a conversation like this, which I would never want to be the case, it would all be on your end, but you are the one seeing this whole host of issues through the eyes of a black man instead of just the eyes of a man.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Genius, let me know the moment social stigmas and negative stereotypes based on race have disappeared.

That’s funny. You have a guy on here basically saying that republican blacks can’t be elected be cause they are not black enough, and veiled references to them being Uncle Toms.

Yeah - let me know when negative stereotypes have gone.

One more reason for digging up LBJ’s body and shooting the SOB. [/quote]

I took him more as simply reporting the situation rather than saying he approved, but he is definitely right, That is undeniably how they are viewed.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Red herring. That wasn’t the question or the issue.

Question is: would it be ok to pick a white guy on the basis that whites are under-represented the position?[/quote]

It wasn’t a red herring at all. You can’t act like there aren’t qualifiers. Would it be ok? Yes. Should someone be chosen who can’t do the job WELL, hell no. Since whites have never been denied access into much of anything based on outward or hidden racism in this country, there would obviously be no need.

Actually, I am. If I wasn’t, there is no way the discussion would go on this long.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

No, the Civil Rights movement was about trying to get minorities to have equality of opportunity. Of course society would have to change to accommodate this, and in some cases, law needed to promote it. No one is arguing otherwise.[/quote]

You are arguing otherwise. You argue it any time you act as if society didn’t need to be FORCED to accept blacks as equal. You act like the 60’s came around and everyone just said, “Whew, I’m glad that’s over…I’ve been just DYING to hire some black people for decades and I am so glad I can now!”.

Get fucking real…PLEASE.

[quote]
That is because at that point there wasn’t equality of opportunity. Express segregation and de facto segregation made sure of it.

Fast forward to 2008 - a black candidate isn’t held back from running for the Presidency. Obama has equality of opportunity - as he has had all his life. He hasn’t been held back.[/quote]

You are right, they are not held back from running for the presidency. However, if we were so equal across the board, then we would not just be reaching this point in 2008 where it could actually happen.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Oh my friend, you have not been paying attention to what’s been going on. Conservative blacks are widely reviled among blacks and primitive or not the terms liberal and conservative still apply.[/quote]

If you think Colin Powell would get the same reception as Clarence Thomas, then you don’t have a clue.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Oh my friend, you have not been paying attention to what’s been going on. Conservative blacks are widely reviled among blacks and primitive or not the terms liberal and conservative still apply.

If you think Colin Powell would get the same reception as Clarence Thomas, then you don’t have a clue.
[/quote]

i honestly don’t know what you mean by this

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Oh my friend, you have not been paying attention to what’s been going on. Conservative blacks are widely reviled among blacks and primitive or not the terms liberal and conservative still apply.

If you think Colin Powell would get the same reception as Clarence Thomas, then you don’t have a clue.

i honestly don’t know what you mean by this[/quote]

It was pretty clear. Your statement is false.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Get fucking real…PLEASE.[/quote]

Heh. Of course, the arguments I made were nothing like what you said, but you have now augmented your argument by CAPITALIZING LETTERS, so there is little left to say on that matter.

The 1960s were different - and you can’t notice improvement, I can’t help you. But more to the point:

…and you just made my argument for me. In 2008, we don’t have the kind of problem you are suggesting. You said so yourself “how come past years we didn’t act like we do in 2008?”

Can you be mad that it never happened prior to 2008? Sure. But that has nothing to do with 2008 itself. You can’t create a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist to the degree it used to.

Back to the original point - voting for Obama strictly on the basis of his skin color is the equivalent of voting against Obama because of his skin color. In 2008, there is no need to “correct” some sin of the past, because we see a black man can be a viable candidate for President. We can lament the past, but in 2008, we should be treating the candidates without regard to color.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Get fucking real…PLEASE.

Heh. Of course, the arguments I made were nothing like what you said, but you have now augmented your argument by CAPITALIZING LETTERS, so there is little left to say on that matter.

The 1960s were different - and you can’t notice improvement, I can’t help you. But more to the point:

You are right, they are not held back from running for the presidency. However, if we were so equal across the board, then we would not just be reaching this point in 2008 where it could actually happen.

…and you just made my argument for me. In 2008, we don’t have the kind of problem you are suggesting. You said so yourself “how come past years we didn’t act like we do in 2008?”

Can you be mad that it never happened prior to 2008? Sure. But that has nothing to do with 2008 itself. You can’t create a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist to the degree it used to.

Back to the original point - voting for Obama strictly on the basis of his skin color is the equivalent of voting against Obama because of his skin color. In 2008, there is no need to “correct” some sin of the past, because we see a black man can be a viable candidate for President. We can lament the past, but in 2008, we should be treating the candidates without regard to color.

[/quote]

Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.

I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It wasn’t a red herring at all. You can’t act like there aren’t qualifiers. Would it be ok? Yes. Should someone be chosen who can’t do the job WELL, hell no. Since whites have never been denied access into much of anything based on outward or hidden racism in this country, there would obviously be no need.[/quote]

Yes, actually it was - the issue is whether it is ok to choose someone based on color alone when they are under-represented? In those narrow circumstances, is it ok, or not?

Because depending on that answer, other things flow.

Of course, the problem is that under-representation based on “lack of access” would always have to be proven or at least demonstrated. For you, since you presume racism everywhere, that is easy - for other people, under-representation can be understood to be caused by all kinds of factors.

But the question is - is under-representation enough to justify selecting on the basis of color?

Actually, really - you aren’t.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

It wasn’t a red herring at all. You can’t act like there aren’t qualifiers. Would it be ok? Yes. Should someone be chosen who can’t do the job WELL, hell no. Since whites have never been denied access into much of anything based on outward or hidden racism in this country, there would obviously be no need.

Yes, actually it was - the issue is whether it is ok to choose someone based on color alone when they are under-represented? In those narrow circumstances, is it ok, or not?

Because depending on that answer, other things flow.

Of course, the problem is that under-representation based on “lack of access” would always have to be proven or at least demonstrated. For you, since you presume racism everywhere, that is easy - for other people, under-representation can be understood to be caused by all kinds of factors.

But the question is - is under-representation enough to justify selecting on the basis of color?

Actually, I am. If I wasn’t, there is no way the discussion would go on this long.

Actually, really - you aren’t.[/quote]

“Under-representation” alone was never enough. That is why so much research went into many decisions as far as affirmative action (research I have posted several times conducted under the Clinton admin). Social programs like this weren’t made based on “under-representation”. They were based on the fact that it was proven blacks and women made LESS money than whites in the same positions if they were even hired at all. There was a very strong “good 'ol boy” network that kept blacks from progressing yet you seem to think this is not the case.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.[/quote]

Bingo - we haven’t had a black president yet, which demonstrates my point exactly: it isn’t equality of opportunity you want, it’s equality of result.

You won’t be satisfied in the level of “equality” until certain results are met, rather than whether a person is judged and given opportunities in a color-blind manner.

We could have a legitimate black candidate in every presidential race for the next 40 years, but if one of them doesn’t win in that time - even though they have every opportunity to - you will claim there is a lack of equality.

This is base identity politics. The Civil Rights movement wasn’t about that - and neither am I.

More strawmen. Relate back to my comment on not sticking to what people argue.

I have never said “no more improvements need to be made” - but happy fictionalizing.

In fact, I work with inner-city minorities and have for the better part of 10 years. If I thought “no more need for improvements”, I’d go buy a Playstation and stop helping black kids whose biggest problems isn’t “the system”, but abandonment by their parents.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Oh my friend, you have not been paying attention to what’s been going on. Conservative blacks are widely reviled among blacks and primitive or not the terms liberal and conservative still apply.

If you think Colin Powell would get the same reception as Clarence Thomas, then you don’t have a clue.

i honestly don’t know what you mean by this

It was pretty clear. Your statement is false.[/quote]

I’m not being sarcastic. I really don’t understand. Powell would be considered far more conservative than Obama, but liberal than Thomas. Thomas was attacked mercilessly by every specifically black organization of note during that debacle of a confirmation process. From what I can recall Powell has had a better, but decidedly lukewarm reception. It’s only ultra leftist blacks like Obama, Charlie Rangel and Chaka Fattah who appear to be embraced by the majority, though certainly not all.

I don’t know how this can even be questioned. It may not be true of you, but the constituencies sure bear that out unlike a case like JC watts who was a black republican elected in a predominantly white district.

BTW, I’m a conservative first. I do usually vote republican, but most of them are far too liberal for me any more as well. I have no substantial loyalty to that party.

Colin Powell is the only black Republican that would have ever had a chance of becoming President…nevertheless,the first black president.Yet he wasn’t Republican enough for some…which isn’t a bad thing in my eyes…lol.

IMO,he was held back by the Republicans and ultimately made a fool of by Bush and his “homies.” Yet people will say that “ohh well that’s Powell’s own fault for allowing that to happen” while at the same time crying because they were made a fool of by the same people. Ironic,huh.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.

I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.[/quote]

There could have very easily been a black president in 1996 - unfortunately, Colin Powell chose not to run. Does his choice in 1996 affect the state of the nation?

Here is an excerpt from an article I read by a British journalist from a couple weeks ago - interesting observations:

[i]This blend of charm, grace, and steeliness also influences Obama�??s ethnic image. One might raid the store of (I trust) inoffensive ethnic stereotypes to describe Obama’s personality as a combination of black charm and Swiss efficiency. That in no way intends to suggest that he is running away from an ethnic identity as a black man. Quite the contrary: In his autobiographical works, he embraces such an identity very warmly when he could have presented himself as of “mixed” race. But he is not running as a representative black candidate in the resentful mode of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

When Obama deals with issues of particular concern to blacks, he stresses their social-justice aspects rather than their specifically racial components. And when he discusses identity issues, he does so as someone advocating an America united on the basis of fairness rather than a racial spoils system. There are illusions and deceptions built into this approach, as we shall see, but his rhetoric and appeal reflect a political identity that rises above race and ethnicity. He is the candidate of a post-racist America.

His electoral support reflects this post-racist appeal. In both New Hampshire and Iowa, he won votes disproportionately from higher-educated voters, young voters, wealthier Democrats, first-time voters, independents, and crossover moderate Republicans. Hillary held on to most of the Democratic base among poorer, less educated, and more partisan Democrats. When all Americans are asked �?? Gallup again �?? whether they are optimistic or pessimistic about whether Hillary, Obama, McCain, and Huckabee would bring about real change, Obama scores highest among all Americans as the candidate most likely to effect change. Among Democrats alone, Hillary wins this contest by a large margin. Significantly, both Obama and McCain score well in general because they both have a strong appeal to the other party.

This sense of “change” already achieved explains why veteran black activists like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been so nervous about the Obama campaign: A black man in the White House would undermine the politics of white guilt/black exploitation that has long been their stock in trade. It also helps explain why Obama’s campaign has such a joyful, relaxed, and oddly uncontroversial “feel” to it. On the morrow of Iowa, it seemed almost an apolitical celebration; though the New Hampshire defeat later cooled the celebration, it did not alter its nonpartisan quality of complacent moral self-congratulation. It is not a very bold prediction to say that if Obama gets his party’s nomination, the post-Iowa mood that America had a moral responsibility to elect Obama will be restored on steroids. [/i]

My question is this: Given Obama’s candidacy, does he really need to win the election for blacks to judge this as a statement about where the country stands? Is the idea that if voters prefer McCain, America must be a racist country?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
<<< if Obama gets his party’s nomination, the post-Iowa mood that America had a moral responsibility to elect Obama will be restored on steroids. [/i]

My question is this: Given Obama’s candidacy, does he really need to win the election for blacks to judge this as a statement about where the country stands? Is the idea that if voters prefer McCain, America must be a racist country?[/quote]

It does not mean that en masse though it will be spun that way in the major media outlets until the swallows come back to Capistrano.

Change means less than nothing unless were truthfully told what were changing into. The wrong changes are indeed far worse than no change at all. Also, I like most am assuming that he would have the house and senate to play with though that is not a given either. For the first time in a while I really don’t know what I think will happen in the congressional races. Give this guy sizable majorities in the legislative branch and I’m finding a tornado shelter to hide in until it’s over.