Hijack Haven

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

You’ll have to give me some quotes on this, everything I’ve seen he’s very much separation of Church and State.

[/quote]

I think he’s referring to an old audio clip of Santorum saying JFK’s speech on separation of church and state made him sick. I agree with him. Separation of church is a liberal invention - it was made the law of the land by a five to four ruling in Everson v Board of Education led by Hugo Black - a former Klansman and notorious anti-Catholic bigot:

The founders only intended that no official state religion/denomination be established by the government. Anything beyond that is pure invention.[/quote]

Well that is just common sense.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

You mean he doesn’t want to force the Church to pay for someone’s contraception.[/quote]

No he genuinely hates birth control in general and thinks it’s harmful to women. [/quote]

Depending on what it is, he’d be right.

[quote]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

And, what gay rights are those?[/quote]

He wants to reinstate DADT. Santorum stated that he believed mutually consenting adults do not have a constitutional right to privacy with respect to sexual acts.[/quote]

I didn’t know there was a constitutional right to privacy at all?

[quote]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Even as a non-Christian I had problems with several of these things. What does being a Christian or non-Christian have to with anything?[/quote]

A lot.

Why don’t you start a thread in GAL asking people about their stance on contraception and porn in general?

You must not get out much. [/quote]

I live in a liberal college town. However, I don’t understand why there is the split. Can’t Christians vote their mind? Can’t non-Christians vote theirs?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Depending on what it is, he’d be right.[/quote]

He’s against birth control on the whole.

Citing the few downsides of birth control while ignoring the massive benefits is idiotic. So no he’s not right.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I didn’t know there was a constitutional right to privacy at all?[/quote]

You have a reasonable expectation to privacy under the 4th amendment.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I live in a liberal college town. However, I don’t understand why there is the split. Can’t Christians vote their mind? Can’t non-Christians vote theirs?[/quote]

Umm… who is arguing you can’t vote your mind?

You made a statement about how when you were a non-Christian you were also against these things. I told you your views as a Non-Christian aren’t representative of non-Christians and implored you to start a thread in GAL to prove my point.

What you wrote is a non-sequitur.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I’d like to think that he has a larger purpose behind bringing this up now, as he is. Something that has less to do with “winning” the Presidency and more to do with making a point and accomplishing a greater goal (such as forcing the left to deal with a sticky issue…it’s easy to defend free speech, not quite so simple to defend hard-core porn…).

[/quote]

What do you mean defend “hard-core porn?”

Defend it under what terms?
[/quote]

Think about it. You think a politician of any stripe wants to stand up before his constituents and the rest of the US of A and allow himself the vulnerability of being portrayed as the candidate in favor of hard-core porn?

It won’t matter that he is making it an issue of free-speech and censorship. He supports porn!

I’m not saying it’s good or bad. I’m talking about how politics works.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I also do NOT think Shakespeare should EVER be read without a proper reader. The Riverside Shakespeare is excellent for containing everything you need to give the texts a proper reading with nearly exhaustive notes in the margins. Highly recommended. I’m almost certain no high schools are offering similar context in their assignments. Reading Shakespeare out of context is just a waste of time.

Lol, that’s the one on my shelf.

The Huffington Post obtained transcripts of Santorum’s comments and speeches from various campaign stops in 1994, which show just how far Santorum was willing to go with his proposals. Produced for the then-Sen. Harris Wofford’s campaign, the video and audio transcripts show that the Pennsylvania Republican was willing to deny unwed mothers government services until they revealed private family information.

Under the plan, those unwed mothers would have to reveal the name of their child?s father in exchange for welfare and subsidized medical care. What was once the domain of private labs, family courts, and Maury Povich would become the domain of the government.

“What we say is that in order for Mom to be able to go on welfare if she has a child out of wedlock, you have to tell us who the father is,” Santorum said at an event in Carlisle, Pa., on April 1, 1994. “If you don’t tell us who the father is, you’re not eligible for any welfare benefits, none, not even medical care. You tell us who the father is or you don’t receive benefits.”

Santorum argued that his proposal could persuade single women to slow their sex lives, which, in turn, would lead to less out-of-wedlock parenting. “If Mom knows that she isn’t gonna receive welfare if she doesn’t tell us who Dad is, y’know maybe she’ll be a little more careful, maybe,” he said.

“Or maybe she gives us a list, say ‘Well it could be one of five,’” Santorum went on. “I mean, y’know, I don’t know what she’s gonna do, but at some point we’re gonna see her cooperate.”

So is this guy for real or…?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

The Huffington Post obtained transcripts of Santorum’s comments and speeches from various campaign stops in 1994, which show just how far Santorum was willing to go with his proposals. Produced for the then-Sen. Harris Wofford’s campaign, the video and audio transcripts show that the Pennsylvania Republican was willing to deny unwed mothers government services until they revealed private family information.

Under the plan, those unwed mothers would have to reveal the name of their child?s father in exchange for welfare and subsidized medical care. What was once the domain of private labs, family courts, and Maury Povich would become the domain of the government.

“What we say is that in order for Mom to be able to go on welfare if she has a child out of wedlock, you have to tell us who the father is,” Santorum said at an event in Carlisle, Pa., on April 1, 1994. “If you don’t tell us who the father is, you’re not eligible for any welfare benefits, none, not even medical care. You tell us who the father is or you don’t receive benefits.”

Santorum argued that his proposal could persuade single women to slow their sex lives, which, in turn, would lead to less out-of-wedlock parenting. “If Mom knows that she isn’t gonna receive welfare if she doesn’t tell us who Dad is, y’know maybe she’ll be a little more careful, maybe,” he said.

“Or maybe she gives us a list, say ‘Well it could be one of five,’” Santorum went on. “I mean, y’know, I don’t know what she’s gonna do, but at some point we’re gonna see her cooperate.”

So is this guy for real or…?[/quote]

/cheers.

We’re not the damn father and we have to pay for her welfare. Pappa needs to be known, and squeezed for every last penny of child support.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

/cheers.

We’re not the damn father and we have to pay for her welfare. Pappa needs to be known, and squeezed for every last penny of child support.
[/quote]

Seconded. In what universe is his suggestion a bad one? Bringing deadbeat dads to heel and forcing private responsibility where it should be happening?

/Looks at out-of-wedlock rates, and correlation to poverty, crime, lack of education, etc.

/Looks at the tax dollars coming out of not-the-pappas’ paychecks.

/Wonders at the arrogance it takes to claim this is too much to ask, in order to receive a cut of non-voluntarily redistributed wealth from the not-the-pappas. You know, folks who didn’t participate in the ‘my-bedroom-my-business’ sex.

I mean, ok, fine. Let’s put in an opt out for those funding the nanny state. Freeeedo…Oh, no? Freedom’s not so cool anymore, I’m sure. I’m not a ‘tear it all down’ kind of guy when it comes to the nanny state. Mainly because it’s probably close to impossible to even cut (real, sizable, cuts). But the entitled class and their one-way street freedoms, at others expense, is really starting to grate.

Be careful lefty’s get all worked up when you slap them with the cold hand of reality.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

The Huffington Post obtained transcripts of Santorum’s comments and speeches from various campaign stops in 1994, which show just how far Santorum was willing to go with his proposals. Produced for the then-Sen. Harris Wofford’s campaign, the video and audio transcripts show that the Pennsylvania Republican was willing to deny unwed mothers government services until they revealed private family information.

Under the plan, those unwed mothers would have to reveal the name of their child?s father in exchange for welfare and subsidized medical care. What was once the domain of private labs, family courts, and Maury Povich would become the domain of the government.

“What we say is that in order for Mom to be able to go on welfare if she has a child out of wedlock, you have to tell us who the father is,” Santorum said at an event in Carlisle, Pa., on April 1, 1994. “If you don’t tell us who the father is, you’re not eligible for any welfare benefits, none, not even medical care. You tell us who the father is or you don’t receive benefits.”

Santorum argued that his proposal could persuade single women to slow their sex lives, which, in turn, would lead to less out-of-wedlock parenting. “If Mom knows that she isn’t gonna receive welfare if she doesn’t tell us who Dad is, y’know maybe she’ll be a little more careful, maybe,” he said.

“Or maybe she gives us a list, say ‘Well it could be one of five,’” Santorum went on. “I mean, y’know, I don’t know what she’s gonna do, but at some point we’re gonna see her cooperate.”

So is this guy for real or…?[/quote]

/cheers.

We’re not the damn father and we have to pay for her welfare. Pappa needs to be known, and squeezed for every last penny of child support.
[/quote]

Whether these services should be provided or not by the government is another issue.

I’m talking about the government’s intrusion into the personal lives of people. Going as far as requesting DNA samples and holding services hostage until they are provided is ridiculous. There are limits to what personal information the government should be allowed to have access to from it’s law abiding private citizens.

Secondly, if the woman does not know who the father is, how is that fair grounds to deny medical services? This is just another attempt to punish people for having sex outside of marriage. I guess government interference is only okay when it’s related to the bedroom activities of its private citizens. Why are you guys so in favour of using the power of government to control women’s sexual behaviour? While I agree that women should be discouraged from unwanted pregnancies, the legislatures seem to be pushing for more and more obstacles to a woman’s right to choose.

Thirdly, what about the private lives of men who are falsely claimed to be the father? If I am falsely claimed to be the father of some child by a random woman, why the fuck should I be required to give a blood test? Stay out of my fucking life government.

Fourth, how come there is no denial of services to the deadbeat dads once they are identified (in general whatever they are currently receiving)? Why is he so focused on punishing women only?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Why are you guys so in favour of using the power of government to control women’s sexual behaviour?[/quote]

It isn’t a matter of “control”, but it warrants intervention the moment the otherwise private behavior becomes a matter of public interest, and having children that must be taken care of via the public fisc certainly qualifies.

It’s what, a 30 minute test? It’s easy, and it’s justified under the circumstances.

Their “punishment” is being forced to support the child for which they are responsible.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Secondly, if the woman does not know who the father is, how is that fair grounds to deny medical services? This is just another attempt to punish people for having sex outside of marriage. I guess government interference is only okay when it’s related to the bedroom activities of its private citizens. Why are you guys so in favour of using the power of government to control women’s sexual behaviour? While I agree that women should be discouraged from unwanted pregnancies, the legislatures seem to be pushing for more and more obstacles to a woman’s right to choose.
[/quote]

That really is the goal. Put these women in a worse situation than they are already in, hoping others will see this and think twice before making the same mistake in their life.

Not completely unrelated but I don’t know anywhere else to post it.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
That really is the goal. [/quote]

Evidence?

I gotta say I thoroughly enjoyed this video:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

The Huffington Post obtained transcripts of Santorum’s comments and speeches from various campaign stops in 1994, which show just how far Santorum was willing to go with his proposals. Produced for the then-Sen. Harris Wofford’s campaign, the video and audio transcripts show that the Pennsylvania Republican was willing to deny unwed mothers government services until they revealed private family information.

Under the plan, those unwed mothers would have to reveal the name of their child?s father in exchange for welfare and subsidized medical care. What was once the domain of private labs, family courts, and Maury Povich would become the domain of the government.

“What we say is that in order for Mom to be able to go on welfare if she has a child out of wedlock, you have to tell us who the father is,” Santorum said at an event in Carlisle, Pa., on April 1, 1994. “If you don’t tell us who the father is, you’re not eligible for any welfare benefits, none, not even medical care. You tell us who the father is or you don’t receive benefits.”

Santorum argued that his proposal could persuade single women to slow their sex lives, which, in turn, would lead to less out-of-wedlock parenting. “If Mom knows that she isn’t gonna receive welfare if she doesn’t tell us who Dad is, y’know maybe she’ll be a little more careful, maybe,” he said.

“Or maybe she gives us a list, say ‘Well it could be one of five,’” Santorum went on. “I mean, y’know, I don’t know what she’s gonna do, but at some point we’re gonna see her cooperate.”

So is this guy for real or…?[/quote]

Thats fucked up, lets hope he is not for real.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Whether these services should be provided or not by the government is another issue.[/quote]

Nope. It is the issue.

Like claiming a portion of a person’s life span in order to fund others? It takes time to make the money that is then redirected to a woman who doesn’t feel like she owes anything significant back.

Hell, they didn’t take a DNA sample from the taxpayer before sticking them with public ‘child support.’

The private citizens handling their matters privately? Or the belligerent, heading for a public trough, demanding no strings attached subsidization?

I’d suggest she find the father, we’re not him.

Don’t you dare. Don’t even pull this transparent bull-crap. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE INTERJECTING THEIR BEDROOM CONSEQUENCES INTO OUR LIVES, TELLING US TO GET BENT AND FORK OUT OUR MONEY.

[quote] Why are you guys so in favour of using the power of government to control women’s sexual behaviour?[/quote].

Omg.

You mean, like when they’re required to pay away a part of their working lives to such women through redistribution entitlement programs?

I know you still can’t see this my old friend, but I continue to appreciate your offerings in these areas. Very good indeed.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Nope. It is the issue. [/quote]

No it’s not

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Like claiming a portion of a person’s life span in order to fund others? It takes time to make the money that is then redirected to a woman who doesn’t feel like she owes anything significant back.[/quote]

What does ’ claiming a portion of a person’s life span in order to fund others’ mean? I don’t understand.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Hell, they didn’t take a DNA sample from the taxpayer before sticking them with public ‘child support.’ [/quote]

If you think the providing of such services is unjust fine. I’m not arguing over whether they should be provided or not. I’m against the actual formation of the policy. If we can’t agree on this, then the discussion cannot move forward.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

The private citizens handling their matters privately? Or the belligerent, heading for a public trough, demanding no strings attached subsidization? [/quote]

If you’re against the subsidization, eliminate it completely. However if you agree these services should be subsidized, do not put these ridiculous conditions upon them.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

I’d suggest she find the father, we’re not him. [/quote]

This doesn’t rebut my point.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Don’t you dare. Don’t even pull this transparent bull-crap. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE INTERJECTING THEIR BEDROOM CONSEQUENCES INTO OUR LIVES, TELLING US TO GET BENT AND FORK OUT OUR MONEY.[/quote]

No. Instead you and people who share your position should take responsibility for you part in all of this. Unwanted pregnancies have been on the decline since the invention of contraception. You are part of an institution that preaches it as an immorality even though they have clearly help prevent this problem.

Comprehensive sex education has shown to drive down unwanted pregnancy and STD rates, yet you still label it as filth, consider it harmful to children (with no basis) and try to keep it down.

So no you have it backwards. People aren’t interjecting their bedroom consequences into your lives, you and people of similar standing are dumbing them down, feeding them false information and this is result of that.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Omg.[/quote]

I agree

[quote]Sloth wrote:

You mean, like when they’re required to pay away a part of their working lives to such women through redistribution entitlement programs?

[/quote]

Then eliminate the subsidization completely.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No it’s not[/quote]

Yes, it is.

[quote]
What does ’ claiming a portion of a person’s life span in order to fund others’ mean? I don’t understand.[/quote]

It means that it takes a limited resource to produce the money that is then taxed and redistributed to “my bedroom, your responsibility” folks. Time.

[quote]
If you think the providing of such services is unjust fine. I’m not arguing over whether they should be provided or not. I’m against the actual formation of the policy. If we can’t agree on this, then the discussion cannot move forward.[/quote]

Are you as against the policy which confiscates from the taxpayer for public child support? And why shouldn’t a woman be able to voluntarily disclose that information for a privilege, receiving other peoples money against their will, above and beyond inherent rights?

Ridiculous? For receiving confiscated money their big ‘responsibility’ to the public is to give the government the ability to go after dead beat dads.

No, your people should take responsibility. The only thing you’re capable of is offering-- after destroying traditional morality and self-governing behavior and thought–to subsidize the contraception and sterilization of a nation. But, like you said, we can always replace ourselves with higher fertility, more orthodox religious, immigrants. Please, I’m not up to taking lectures from the dead-enders. You folks have failed. You can’t even replace yourselves.

Oh, we will. But do you understand how silly and bass ackwards your position is? Unless of course you’re actually concerned about the taxpayer’s present situation, as he subsidizes the bedroom behavior of people he didn’t screw. But, who nonetheless, are screwing him.