High Labs Feel Awful -- Thoughts Please

Hey guys been on TRT for a few years now. Recently decided to add some Deca In mid Janurary to take away some nagging sports injuries, at 75mg a week. I’ve been running Test around 120mg week split in two. But decided to increase a little to 150mg weekly to be double the Deca to prevent any issues. Needless to say I feel like dog shit last few weeks. I stopped the Deca about almost two weeks ago and returned to normal dosage and just had labs yesterday and will post results. Normally My E2 is in the 40’s and TT 800-900 and FT low 20’s. I’ve never run an AI and never had an issue but been pretty brutal the last month. I’m guessing based on labs that all my ranges are way to high. Hopefully start feeling normal again since dropping again to 120mg weekly because this is tough. I’m guessing just give it time and see how i feel over the next few weeks. Thank you!

Symptoms:

– No erections
– Loss of libido
– Super Moody
– Night sweats, cant sleep

When was the last time you had your thyroid checked out?

Did the lab know you were using nandrolone? I’ve had blood work done by Access before and that doesn’t look like the LC/MS-MS assay. If it’s not then your TT number isn’t accurate. But your e2 is definitely high, I’d take a low dose AI and see if that doesn’t help.

Checked last year by an endo everything was good he said.

Yes, I told them it was 10 days from my last time using Nandrolone. And yes its the LC/MS-MS assay. Will add an AI soon if symptoms don’t resolve.

Your symptoms was Me, I now take .25mg of Anastrozole one time every 7 days fixed me ~3 days after taking the first pill. I also take 100mg. of Amitriptyline every evening. It makes me sleep again with no addiction or bad reactions. It also helps with anxiety.

Posted here about a month ago. Was doing UGL Enanthate of 75mg twice weekly. My results were high on Total T about 1400, Free T was 42 and E2 was 79 from results i posted.

Recently went provider route with Defy because I was feeling miserable. When I took labs for them I had switched to 50mg twice weekly about a week or so prior, because I thought numbers were too high. And there results show pretty different numbers for E2 and the doc wanted to do the Sensitive estradiol to get a more accurate number he said. They started me on 120mg Test Cyp split twice weekly plus 300iu HCG split twice week.

I just started there protocol last Monday – but mood, lethargy, libido and ED still a problem. I’m sure the UGL I was using was God knows what, I know you have to give a good 4-6 weeks to see changes. Any reason why the E2 would be so low on the sensitive, and is that more accurate? I have 3 months from week ago to do followup bloods with them, should I do a sensitive E2 on my own in a few weeks to make sure E2 is responding and climbing. They said they want it to be closer to my SHBG which is low 20’s.


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What were the E2 and total testosterone levels?

The ECLIA test (aka immunoassay or IA) for E2 management is commonly used for those on TRT. It is not an incorrect test or a test for women, but simply one way to check estradiol levels. The other commonly utilized test is the LC/MS/MS method (aka liquid chromatography dual mass spectrometry, sensitive or ultrasensitive). It is the more expensive of the two. There are inherent advantages and disadvantages to each of these two methods. I have been fortunate to be able to speak with professionals who work with both methods. One is a PhD researcher for Pfizer and the other is a medical doctor at Quest. I’ll summarize their comments.

The ECLIA method is the more reliable of the two in terms of consistent results. The equipment is easier to operate thus accuracy is less reliant on the skill of the operator. If the same sample were to be tested twenty times, there would be very little, if any, difference in the results.

The ECLIA method is not as “sensitive” in that it will not pick up E2 levels below 15pg/mL. If your E2 level with this test is 1-14pg/mL, the reported result will be “<15”. Because of this, it is not recommended for menopausal women, men in whom very low levels of E2 are suspected, or children. In other words, if your levels are below 15pg/mL, and it is important to know if the level is 1 or 14pg/mL, you do not want this test. For us, this is likely moot, since if you are experiencing low E2 symptoms and your test comes back at <15, you have your answer. For a woman being treated with anti-estrogen therapy for breast cancer, it may be necessary to know if the E2 level is zero or fourteen because therapeutically, they want zero estrogen.

A disadvantage to IA testing is that it may pick up other steroid metabolites, which in men would be very low levels, but still could alter the result. Another potential disadvantage is that elevated levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) may elevate the result. CRP is elevated in serious infections, cancer, auto-immune diseases, like rheumatoid arthritis and other rheumatoid diseases, cardiovascular disease and morbid obesity. Even birth control pills could increase CRP. A normal CRP level is 0-5 to 10mg/L. In the referenced illnesses, CRP can go over 100, or even over 200mg/L. Unless battling one of these serious conditions, CRP interference is unlikely.

The LC/MS/MS method will pick up lower E2 levels and would be indicated in menopausal women and some men if very low E2 levels are suspected and it is desired to know exactly how low, children and the previously mentioned women on anti-estrogen therapy. It will not be influenced by elevated CRP levels or other steroid metabolites.

While some may believe the ECLIA test is for women, on the contrary, as it pertains to women on anti-estrogen therapy, such as breast cancer patients, the LC/MS/MS is the test for women as CRP levels are a consideration and it is necessary to know if the treatment has achieved an estrogen level of zero.

On the other side of the coin, LC/MS/MS equipment is “temperamental” (as stated by the PhD who operates both) and results are more likely to be inconsistent. Because of this, researchers will often run the same sample multiple times.

It is not clear if FDA approval is significant, but this appears on Quest’s lab reports: This test was developed, and its analytical performance characteristics have been determined by Quest Diagnostics Nichols Institute San Juan Capistrano. It has not been cleared or approved by FDA. This assay has been validated pursuant to the CLIA regulations and is used for clinical purposes. This statement is on LabCorp’s results: This test was developed and its performance characteristics determined by LabCorp. It has not been cleared by the Food and Drug Administration.

It is unlikely that any difference in the same sample run through both methods will be clinically significant. Estradiol must be evaluated, and it should be checked initially and ongoing after starting TRT. It obviously makes sense to use the same method throughout. Most important are previous history and symptoms related to low or high E2. Those are correlated with before and after lab results. Any estradiol management should not be utilized without symptoms confirmed by lab results.

By the way, your name is at the top of page two.

Looks like posts were merged – The E2 and Total test were 79 E2 and about 1400 TT – about 6 weeks ago on 75mg Enanthate twice weekly and 75 mg Nandrolone weekly.

The most recent labs for Defy a month ago were taken with no Nandrolone and 50mg twice weekly of UGL Enanthate as they needed a baseline, however they did sensitive and it came back as 9. So just trying to figure why there is such a huge gap and which to go on for E2 as the guy was stuck on the sensitive being more accurate. Its been about 2 weeks on new regimen with defy and still feel exactly same with symptoms I had before I know it may take some time – doing 120mg T Cyp and 600iu HCG weekly, each split in 2.

I wish I had a solid explanation for you. Given your total testosterone, your E2 should be much higher than 9. Plus, you are not feeling well.

I would consider a couple of options. One, just go back to the dosage you used when you were good. You can re-check labs in a while if you’d like, but if doing well, you could simply continue. Two, repeat the test. I’d do both ECLIA and LC/MS/MS tests while I was at it. I’ve done that several times with interesting results. Maybe check CRP as well. It’s not expensive.

All things equal, operator skill, etc., the LC dual MS test can, in certain circumstances, be more accurate. Aside from those unique circumstances, like I mentioned above, it is more prone to error.

By the way, I don’t know how your labs are billed to you, but if you are on TRT there is no reason to check FSH or LH so those exams should be eliminated.

Good luck.