No one here mentioned an AI to get to that level. Relax.
The discussion was about ratios, and @sublimeprince32 is spreading bro-science or fake news or whatever you want to call them. Hence why I wrote here.
The reason why people are not feeling well on AIs is because they are synthetic drugs and they come with side effects, like all the drugs, either if your E2 is 10-20-40 or 170. I get loose stools and joint pain from AIs even if my E2 is 50 or 60 with them. Side effects with drugs are not dependant on a determined number on paper sometime. You either get them or not.
Sometimes you get them in the beginning and they fade away, sometimes they donāt ameliorate.
The whole point here is that we are talking about testosterone REPLACEMENT therapy, which means you are trying to replicate something a healthy body does by itself. So, having that in mind, what @sublimeprince32 said about ratio was simply wrong. Period.
Something is healthy or not, especially on the long run. So dividing people on TRT and not on TRT is just meaningless.
Otherwise we are talking about something else, that canāt be called testosterone replacement therapy, because you are not replacing anything.
The OP got sensible relief from an AI. What does that suggest to you? That he should keep raising his dose until symptoms fade away, maybe running supra physiological hormones levels that hasnāt been observed in any human being, or trying to find a way to get a better T:E2 ratio which doesnāt imply throwing in another drug?
The studies that shows that E2 is concerning for prostate health and that high levels of androgens are affecting cardiovascular health have been published. Itās your choice to decide what to do with them.
You do whatever you want bud. Those of us that know better simply know. TT:E2 ratio has been studied and discussed in many papers. There are specific ratios that prostate cancers thrive at. All prostrate cancer patients have low ratios. These are facts. OP will be back here in no time once his E2 is crashed.
Great attitude. Surely you know more than doctors working with hundreds of patients every year.
For everyone reading this thread, I hope you realise who you are listening to regarding your health.
Still waiting for the paper where you got that magic number out. Must be the same where Ksman got his E2 must be 22-23.
Thereās been plenty of studies posted here showing the opposite
The point of TRT is to give the body an adequate level of Testosterone to alleviate symptoms. Whatever that level may be. Thereās plenty of folks here that are looking to optimize. Myself included. If someone just wants to have testosterone at a certain number and call it a day they can do that easily. If they want to get the most out of it then that can be a little more complicated. The problem with what youāre saying is itās what everyone here is doing already when they come here and complain they still have problems or arenāt feeling any difference.
That says it. Finding the level and dose to get there is the challenge. Plus, more is not necessarily better. My lifts did not take a big jump when increasing from 400mg to 800mg and I do not recall feeling any better.
It has been discussed several times. We donāt know yet if elevated E2 is the culprit for prostate cancer or if itās the low T:E2 ratio fueling it. We simply donāt have enough data yet, because there are some studies contradicting themselves. DHT used to be blamed as the culprit of it, while now medical literature is moving away from it, actually showing DHT having anti-inflammatory properties in tissues.
So I personally prefer trying to stick to what has been observed in young healthy males not having any issue, until new studies will be showing the contrary.
Testosterone being responsible of thickening the blood is a certainty. You canāt deny everyone HCT goes up while on TRT. The consequences of running more viscous blood for several years are obvious, so these needs to be taken in account while having a long term strategy on your health.
I prefer to play it safe, some reckless doctors will tell you that you shouldnāt monitor your HCT and that more is better.
This is where we disagree. You have to make a choice here. You can run a free T the double/triple of the maximum range (reaching the saturation point for E2 conversion) and you hope nothing will happen to you one day, you can run free T close to the top range and try to get E2 under a reasonable ratio with an AI (hoping a synthetic drug wonāt harm you on the long run) or you can do the latter trying to tweak your protocol until you feel good.
So we have papers that show E2 is bad for prostate & cardiovascular disease and papers showing its good for it. Do you really want to rely solely on papers to make decisions? Or do you want to use them as an extra bit of info to help guide you towards making a decision?
Who in the T-replacement section has double (much less triple) the maximum range free T levels? I donāt think Iāve seen a single person since Iāve been a member.
As I said itās not just papers. Your levels have not been observed in any human being, not young normal guys, neither athletes. Itās not only E2, itās both androgens and estrogens.
I donāt know your E2 level, but I recall your total T being close to 2000 ng/dL.
So, this plus papers on the dangers of E2, have directed my decision.
I donāt know in this section, but the lifting dermatologist working with Danny is running a free T>60 by his own admission. The real value would be even higher if he used the old school direct immunoassay to calculate it.
Iāve used supplements to clean my liver, checked for minerals and vitamins unbalances and tested different injections frequencies and different esters. Lowered my dose as much as possible, to the point I donāt get horrible insomnia and anxiety.
It improved sides, but didnāt get rid of insomnia and anxiety once and for all.
Iāve used supplements to clean my liver, checked for minerals and vitamins unbalances and tested different injections frequencies and different esters. Lowered my dose as much as possibleā¦ and then worked up by 20mg increments (starting at 100mg) with 2-3 months in between each until I got to a point where I felt like a human again (which was 180mg). I then eventually went to 200mg where I do best. Itās been life changing. Every aspect of my life is better. Iām literally living a dream partially due to TRT. If I would have stayed at 100mg I would be miserable.
Thatās 24 hrs after a shot (185mg/week daily injection protocol). 220mg/once a week injections tested at trough put me at a total T of 1000.
@sublimeprince32 Iāll just make this one comment because you tagged me in it and Iāve been home not doing much for the last few days.
Guyās like @appassionato will never get this stuff. Theyāll keep making the same arguments that guys like me just shake their heads at. You CANNOT use ranges for TRT. Not for Total, not for free, and not for E2. As long as you are trying to mimic a range for men not on TRT for any of these and focus on the numbers you will never understand how this is done. Absolutely never. It doesnāt work this way. Iāve seen men completely symptomatic with a total of 1800 and have complete symptom resolution at 2100. I kid you not. Not bodybuilders, not even a young guy either. These guys continue to be completely ignorant to the fact that our bodies are absolutely poisoned by our environment and our receptors are completely saturated with this stuff. Symptom resolution often requires levels of T that make most of you uncomfortable, because youāre obsessed with the damn number, instead of being obsessed with what is actually taking place in the body. This is why I left the forum. Constant arguing of something Iāve demonstrated 2000+ times with men, more evidence than someone can read in a month, and still be told itās wrong. Keep obsessing about those numbers guys, by all means. The rest of us are helping more men in a day than you can imagine. We are helping them unlearn what theyāve learnt and show them how these things actually work and, low and behold, everyone is improving across the board. Not just slightly improving. Drastically improving. If you are doing anything whatsoever because of a number youāre doing it wrong. If you even have the slightest concern about estradiol youāre doing it wrong. If youāre seeing things considered supraphysiological and lowering dose simply due to that youāre doing it wrong. The problem is, I can spend a year on the phone with some of these guys, like @systemlord, who simply donāt have the capacity to understand any of it.
Donāt block E2 under any circumstances. Watch the video I did on my channel called āBest TRT Protocolā and learn the strategy I discuss. Once thatās dialed in focus on thyroid, insulin resistance, diet, exercise, stress management, sleep, nutritional deficiencies, etc etc
If environmental estrogen mimics are bad for our bodies and weāre all so saturated with them, why are you letting natural E2 run wild?
I just gotta laugh at dbossaās absoluteness of this thoughts. I followed his recommendations to the T, (no pun intended) and i felt way worse on daily shots at his recommended levels.
Bla bla bla. Sorry Danny, youāre a broken record. You went rage mode again on personal attacks and you didnāt even see what I wrote. Where did I mention an AI? Where did I mention block E2?
The reason why you get guys symptomatic at 1800 total T and things get better when you keep increasing the dose is because you reach saturation point. T keeps raising exponentially, while E2 and DHT grows on a lower percentage. What did you get out of it? A better RATIO. @johann77 posted a study about it, go see it if you missed it.
Thatās what I was replying to @sublimeprince32 retarded comments. It seems your cult followers like to parrot what you say without even understanding what they are saying.
So, back to square one. Read my conversation with @dextermorgan. You have 3 methods:
Your method. You keep increasing dose until you reach saturation point. You get a good T/E2 ratio out of it, with supra physiological hormones levels not observed in any human being ever in history (donāt start with the ridiculous statement that 2000 years ago men were having a total T of 3000). You pray nothing will happen to you on the long run.
This the old method. TRT + low dose AI. You pray keeping your T/E2 within a good ratio with an AI wonāt mess you up on the long run.
You try everything you can staying on aN only T protocol, cleaning your liver, looking for any underlying condition and work with different protocols and esters until you find a good T/E2 ratio that mimics a young healthy guy. This is the most complicated but safest on the long run. And thatās what Iāve chosen.
Itās a marathon, not a sprint.
Lastly, we had a conversation in the past and we talked through email. No one of your doctors manage to help with my case apparently, and other people cases like mine.
Some people get worsened anxiety and horrible insomnia when they bump up their dose. Iām one of them. What do you do in that case? You tell them to wait 6 months to see if the insomnia and bad anxiety goes away? You let them live sleep deprived for 6 months, dealing with an unbearable insomnia that affects their work and family life?
One more thing I forgot to mention.
You have a guy following your advices.
His symptoms resolve but he comes back with elevated HCT, RBC, PSA and lipid panels.
What do you do?
You let him keep going like that, telling him those ranges are man made as well?
You havenāt understood a word Iāve said. Not a word.
It has nothing to do with saturation point. It has to do with having enough T to outcompete EDCs dominating the receptors (for guys like this). Using the āno man in historyā argument demonstrates, again, your lack of understanding. I completely agree that many men need WAY more T these days than ever before! We arenāt comparing ranges or numbers! Some guys need a huge dose to have enough T fight its way to the receptors where it will exert an effect. Again, keep obsessing with the numbers and you wonāt get it. You just wonāt. We are no longer dealing with men who are completely pollutant and poison free where the tiniest bit of exogenous testosterone will make a world of difference. Itās just not like that anymore and itās only going to get worse. It has NOTHING to do with trying to attain a specific ratio as every manās ideal ratio is also different. We DONāT concern ourselves about E2 at ALL, being a paracrine hormone that is formed in the tissue. Again, this is pointless for me to repeat. You donāt get it. Watch the video a few times and maybe it will sink in.
Youāre still obsessing with E2. Keep doing that and youāll always have problems.
Youāre STILL obsessing with E2. Keep doing that and youāll always have problems.
You donāt have the capacity to understand this simple concept that is demonstrated with the provided evidence. Youāre making this very clear AGAIN.
None of the doctors helped you? Which doctor did you use for this? I havenāt found a single guy who hasnāt been fixed with the doctors I use so no idea what youāre talking about here.
No. Elevated HCT is normal on testosterone. Elevated PLATELETS is a totally different animal (this is a concern). PSA isnāt an accurate representation as it also acts very much the way estradiol works. You are seeing a small portion in serum and isnāt representative of what is actually occuring in the prostate. Jordan Grant, a UROLOGIST, goes into depth about this. Lipids arenāt nearly as much as an issue as most people believe and nobody should touch statins. It depends how much the lipid profile is out of whack and is virtually always improved by diet. In most cases Iāve seen, TRT has improved lipid profiles considerably. Using an AI, on the other hand, will be detrimental to lipid profiles.
