[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Not only that, but on effexor it took a real huge effort to cross the finish line… if you know what I mean. [/quote]
I know what you mean. I nearly passed out before crossing the line. It almost became a chore.[/quote]
this never happened me even when i was on a high dose.
While I agree that psychiatric drugs may be over-prescribed, there are many that legitimately need them and are helped by them. I think there is an unfair social stigma that a person who uses these medications is necessarily mentally weak. And this can prevent people from getting the treatment they need. Mental illness is accompanied by actual structural and chemical changes in the brain. If it is severe enough, no amount of positive thinking can help because they are physically not capable of doing so, much like a person with broken legs cannot walk no matter how hard they try. I have seen this myself.
Anti-depressants are one thing…
But who in their right might believes and un-medicated sufferer-of-Schizophrenia (being PC here) is OKAY?
[quote]Kerley wrote:
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Not only that, but on effexor it took a real huge effort to cross the finish line… if you know what I mean. [/quote]
I know what you mean. I nearly passed out before crossing the line. It almost became a chore.[/quote]
this never happened me even when i was on a high dose.[/quote]
Well based on that avatar I cna tell you have no trouble there.
[quote]mtylermartin wrote:
Anti-depressants are one thing…
But who in their right might believes and un-medicated sufferer-of-Schizophrenia (being PC here) is OKAY? [/quote]
if someone is suffering from Schizophrenia, i think they need medicating, the benefits out weigh the side affects in that situation IMO.
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Not only that, but on effexor it took a real huge effort to cross the finish line… if you know what I mean. [/quote]
I know what you mean. I nearly passed out before crossing the line. It almost became a chore.[/quote]
Yes, a chore…to the point of actually faking climax a few times!!
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
[quote]Kerley wrote:
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Not only that, but on effexor it took a real huge effort to cross the finish line… if you know what I mean. [/quote]
I know what you mean. I nearly passed out before crossing the line. It almost became a chore.[/quote]
this never happened me even when i was on a high dose.[/quote]
Well based on that avatar I cna tell you have no trouble there.
[/quote]
there was a few times i couldn’t, but not every time could that have been caused by effexor?
[quote]iflyboats wrote:
Hidden dangers? Psychiatric drugs are the single greatest evil that have ever been promoted in the name of health improvement. Anti-depressants are dangeous for precisely the reason they’re thought to be theraputic; because they elevate the patient’s mood artificially, diminishing his awareness of his problems. It’s all based on the utterly fraudulent idea that a human being is a helpless chemical automaton at the mercy of the neurotransmitters in his brain, which spontaneously decide to go haywire and can only be brought back into balance by the graces of an enlightened psychiatrist.
The result being that every human thought, emotion and behavior under the sun has been pathologized, labeled and added to the DSM-IV as a mental illness. Psychiatry is a pseudoscience, purely and simply.
[/quote]
These drugs get a bad rep because they are over-prescribed. Some people actually have a legitimate chemical imbalance. Imagine being constantly uncomfortable in an unexplainable way, from within. And depression is natural and occurs from environmental factors; a death, for example. But some people are genuinely depressed with no reason, even people with seemingly “perfect” lives. The brain and the human mind is ridiculously complex and we have just scratched the surface.
So far, these drugs are the only way to help these people. Yes, the abuse potential is great, but that calls for even sturdier safety regulations. Obviously, somebody will always find a way to bypass the system, but does this justify people with legitimate physical and mental problems not getting care that they would otherwise be able to get?
For the record, I’d have almost all drugs legalized, but I’m just making a proper argument here.
[quote]Kerley wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
[quote]Kerley wrote:
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Not only that, but on effexor it took a real huge effort to cross the finish line… if you know what I mean. [/quote]
I know what you mean. I nearly passed out before crossing the line. It almost became a chore.[/quote]
this never happened me even when i was on a high dose.[/quote]
Well based on that avatar I cna tell you have no trouble there.
[/quote]
there was a few times i couldn’t, but not every time could that have been caused by effexor?
[/quote]
Lets just say I have never had an issue with getting to release when I wanted …until I took effexor. It started at about 75mgpd.
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
[quote]Kerley wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
[quote]Kerley wrote:
[quote]doogie wrote:
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Not only that, but on effexor it took a real huge effort to cross the finish line… if you know what I mean. [/quote]
I know what you mean. I nearly passed out before crossing the line. It almost became a chore.[/quote]
this never happened me even when i was on a high dose.[/quote]
Well based on that avatar I cna tell you have no trouble there.
[/quote]
there was a few times i couldn’t, but not every time could that have been caused by effexor?
[/quote]
Lets just say I have never had an issue with getting to release when I wanted …until I took effexor. It started at about 75mgpd.[/quote]
oh, well then i never have had a problem, because i was on 225mg/D and could still finish.
The real question is why in most today’s western societies so many people are fucked up to the point that they’re unable to function normally without psychiatric drugs? Obviously there’s something wrong here.
[quote]Berserkergang wrote:
The real question is why in most today’s western societies so many people are fucked up to the point that they’re unable to function normally without psychiatric drugs? Obviously there’s something wrong here.[/quote]
bad shit still happens people?
I might get shit for this, but I think it holds some truth. I dont have the source, but my father is a trauma therapist/addiction counselor, and apparently a lot of people with bi polar and other disorders also have huge drug/alcohol abuse problems, which, when they talk to a therapist/psychiatrist/whatever doc, hides their problem. I’ve also heard that someone who is bi polar has a hugely greater % of having addiction/alcohol problems. A lot of you seem to know your shit in regards to this topic, I was curious about thoughts on that. As in disorder-drug/alcohol abuse- over prescribed? I dont mean to say I think people with bi polar and other such disorders should not be prescribed medication, I firmly believe they should. Hope the above is clear enough.
[quote]lavi wrote:
[quote]CopingMechanism wrote:
Yes, I agree with author.
Having battled suicidal depression and chronic anxiety for a long time, and after a number of different drug treatments and endless therapy sessions; I always suspected from the beginning that something in my body was royally fucked, and it wasn’t what any GP, MD, psychiatrsit or other ‘professional’ told me was wrong.
The traditional monamine hypothesis of mental illnes, the touted singular biological abnormality causing the distress, is even if it ever proven (unlikely), a terribly small part of the picture and more than likely a RESULT OF mental illness rather than A CAUSE.
Mental illnes is likely to be a combination of the following:
-Excesive inflammation (triggered by food allergens, franken foods, pesticides, other chemicals)
-Poor methylation (from lack of omega 3, shoody insulin response etc)
-Hormonal imbalances (Chronically elevated cortisol, low t)
-Heavy metal posiinig (Lead/mercury intoxication)
-Gut abnormality (damaged lining preventing absorbtion of amino acids such as tryptophan, the serotonin precursor)
-Thyroid irregularity (hyper/hypo
-Damaged mitochondria (from excessive cortisol damaging hippocampi and amyglada brain cells)
The above can very verified pathologically and empirically, what real science does; a "neuro-transmitter imbalance cannot.
The above will if not treated, essentaly keep the brain in a constant stress state, no wonder you’ll have no energy, wont be able to concentrate, sleep poorly, suffer memory problems think negatively all the time (if you remove the thousands upon thousands of different contexts of negative thinking, it all boils down to a brain idnetifiying a threat and using the fight/flight response, but on a less visceral manner, eg “this is a threat, this will not be a postive/pro-survival outcome”, have intrusive thoughts (your stressed brain running excessive battle/threat simulations, and generally feel god awful about life
Hey?! Wait a minute! The above sounds like depression, anxiety, ADD, OCD anddementia. Many names, many classifications (I believe the DSM-IV has ‘identified’ over 400 ‘disorders’ now). Seems to me like they all exist on the same spectrtum, a result of the body’s various stress responses gone fucking ballistic. But no, by correctly identified your particular disorder they can give you the correect drug treatment. Fantastic stuff! And what a track record for effective treatment!
Problem is, convincing your healthcare practioner (read legal drug dealer for big pharma companies) to look into the aforementioned, underlying causes; is akin to trying to get a rocking horse to shit itself.
[/quote]
How long were you battling depression/anxiety? And did changing your diet, etc. “fix” it?
[/quote]
Not sure if you missed my question or not. How long were you battling depression/anxiety? Did drugs/counseling not help you, and then changing your diet did?
[quote]CopingMechanism wrote:
[quote]Bullmoose33 wrote:
Of course there are side effects both short term and long term WITH ANY MEDICATION. I could save people $20 by branding “there is no such thing as a free lunch” on their chest. Saying that psychotropic medications do more harm than good is a question that is too complex for the writer or anyone else to say. The reason that these medications are over prescribed in a lot of situations is the same reason they are under prescribed for some other situations, which is lack of education on the part of the parent or the adult patient. Robert Whitaker is a well respected author but is now writing on a topic that is above his level of understanding. [/quote]
I’m a bit confused with what exactly you’re trying to say here. You sort jumped from one thing to another, then rounded it off by saying the author is tackling a project ‘beyond his understanding’.
Mental health, and the manner in which it is treated, is indeed a staggeringly complex entity; but the assertion that drugs that affect the neuro-transmitters are not the best method of treatment is a subject area that SERIOUSLY needs addressing.
Unfortuntley, where there’s a vested intrest in keeping people on meds, issues get bogged in politico-economic rhetoric.[/quote]
Yeah I did try to say a lot about a little. What I meant was that you can’t just look at incomplete scientific data and say drugs are doing more harm than good. I’m sure he makes some good points and perhaps this will be a driving force in fixing an admittedly imperfect system but to make judgements in this field with what little data we have is at best conjecture. It might be good reporting and an even better read but is sounds like amature science.
[quote]Artem wrote:
[quote]iflyboats wrote:
Hidden dangers? Psychiatric drugs are the single greatest evil that have ever been promoted in the name of health improvement. Anti-depressants are dangeous for precisely the reason they’re thought to be theraputic; because they elevate the patient’s mood artificially, diminishing his awareness of his problems. It’s all based on the utterly fraudulent idea that a human being is a helpless chemical automaton at the mercy of the neurotransmitters in his brain, which spontaneously decide to go haywire and can only be brought back into balance by the graces of an enlightened psychiatrist.
The result being that every human thought, emotion and behavior under the sun has been pathologized, labeled and added to the DSM-IV as a mental illness. Psychiatry is a pseudoscience, purely and simply.
[/quote]
These drugs get a bad rep because they are over-prescribed. Some people actually have a legitimate chemical imbalance. Imagine being constantly uncomfortable in an unexplainable way, from within. And depression is natural and occurs from environmental factors; a death, for example. But some people are genuinely depressed with no reason, even people with seemingly “perfect” lives. The brain and the human mind is ridiculously complex and we have just scratched the surface.
So far, these drugs are the only way to help these people. Yes, the abuse potential is great, but that calls for even sturdier safety regulations. Obviously, somebody will always find a way to bypass the system, but does this justify people with legitimate physical and mental problems not getting care that they would otherwise be able to get?
For the record, I’d have almost all drugs legalized, but I’m just making a proper argument here.
[/quote]
I agree 100% with the first half of your post, Artem. I went with somone for ten years who had both depression and schizophrenia. There’s a dig difference between feeling down and being clinically depressed. It’s no fun watching someone that you care about go through the internal hell that these people go through. Visiting someone in the psych ward isn’t a good time.
When you say, “the abuse potential is great”, do you mean abuse of anti-depressants by the people who take them?
Because, i’ve never heard of someone abusing them.
[quote]lavi wrote:
[quote]lavi wrote:
[quote]CopingMechanism wrote:
Yes, I agree with author.
Having battled suicidal depression and chronic anxiety for a long time, and after a number of different drug treatments and endless therapy sessions; I always suspected from the beginning that something in my body was royally fucked, and it wasn’t what any GP, MD, psychiatrsit or other ‘professional’ told me was wrong.
The traditional monamine hypothesis of mental illnes, the touted singular biological abnormality causing the distress, is even if it ever proven (unlikely), a terribly small part of the picture and more than likely a RESULT OF mental illness rather than A CAUSE.
Mental illnes is likely to be a combination of the following:
-Excesive inflammation (triggered by food allergens, franken foods, pesticides, other chemicals)
-Poor methylation (from lack of omega 3, shoody insulin response etc)
-Hormonal imbalances (Chronically elevated cortisol, low t)
-Heavy metal posiinig (Lead/mercury intoxication)
-Gut abnormality (damaged lining preventing absorbtion of amino acids such as tryptophan, the serotonin precursor)
-Thyroid irregularity (hyper/hypo
-Damaged mitochondria (from excessive cortisol damaging hippocampi and amyglada brain cells)
The above can very verified pathologically and empirically, what real science does; a "neuro-transmitter imbalance cannot.
The above will if not treated, essentaly keep the brain in a constant stress state, no wonder you’ll have no energy, wont be able to concentrate, sleep poorly, suffer memory problems think negatively all the time (if you remove the thousands upon thousands of different contexts of negative thinking, it all boils down to a brain idnetifiying a threat and using the fight/flight response, but on a less visceral manner, eg “this is a threat, this will not be a postive/pro-survival outcome”, have intrusive thoughts (your stressed brain running excessive battle/threat simulations, and generally feel god awful about life
Hey?! Wait a minute! The above sounds like depression, anxiety, ADD, OCD anddementia. Many names, many classifications (I believe the DSM-IV has ‘identified’ over 400 ‘disorders’ now). Seems to me like they all exist on the same spectrtum, a result of the body’s various stress responses gone fucking ballistic. But no, by correctly identified your particular disorder they can give you the correect drug treatment. Fantastic stuff! And what a track record for effective treatment!
Problem is, convincing your healthcare practioner (read legal drug dealer for big pharma companies) to look into the aforementioned, underlying causes; is akin to trying to get a rocking horse to shit itself.
[/quote]
How long were you battling depression/anxiety? And did changing your diet, etc. “fix” it?
[/quote]
Not sure if you missed my question or not. How long were you battling depression/anxiety? Did drugs/counseling not help you, and then changing your diet did?[/quote]
Hey dude, whilst I’d love to say that clean eating and some fish oil cured me, it hasn’t. I’m still fighting an ongoing battle with my docs to get to see a real endocrinologist (the standard blood tests are taken of averages, not giving a full and accurate reading). Like I said, what I described above, unfortunatley requires extensive lab work to verify, and mental illness and even CFS like symptoms wont get you through the door to a lab in my country. The standard treatments will be thrown at you and you’ll be sent on your way
Despite, the neccesity of some sort of bio re-setting , I still require stimulants (caffeine) to balance a hectic work and university schedule, and the SSRI’s i’ve been trying to get off for months make me crave sugar like a motherfcvker, so the lifestyle chnages arent easily implementable right now. If i’d of known about this shit 2 years ago, then I might of been to buffer against some of my innate vuneribilities, but unfortunatley, it’s now a case of locking the door after the horse has bolted.
I wouldn’t wish mental illness on my worst enemy.
Rockscar and Kerley:
I have been on effexor consistently for 5 years (was on it also when I was 19 for 3 three years at 75mg) at 300 mg plus 200 of zoloft right now, I feel im ready to really get off of this once and for all, but what you guys have said about the side effects scare the holy hell out of me. From what I have heard and read effexor is one of the worst to get off of. I have been on em all under the sun (im exaggerating here) lets see…risperdal, prozac, effexor, zoloft, buspar, seroquel, welbutrin (I was happy to go on this because of the lack of sexual side effects but it landed me in the hospital) and depakote…yeah I think thats it.
I guess what im trying to say that I was desperate, I needed help, I needed to get better. Medication was necessary for me, as it may have been for kerley at that age ( i hope im not overstepping my bounds here). I never wanted to feel happy all the time I just wanted to feel normal…and some of these meds helped. Now that I am more learned I understand that the good that these meds do may not necessarily outweigh the good. Im stuck in a rock in a hard place. I guess its just getting started. We will see
Couldnt agree with you more.
[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I might get shit for this, but I think it holds some truth. I dont have the source, but my father is a trauma therapist/addiction counselor, and apparently a lot of people with bi polar and other disorders also have huge drug/alcohol abuse problems, which, when they talk to a therapist/psychiatrist/whatever doc, hides their problem. I’ve also heard that someone who is bi polar has a hugely greater % of having addiction/alcohol problems. A lot of you seem to know your shit in regards to this topic, I was curious about thoughts on that. As in disorder-drug/alcohol abuse- over prescribed? I dont mean to say I think people with bi polar and other such disorders should not be prescribed medication, I firmly believe they should. Hope the above is clear enough.[/quote]
I’m bipolar. Before getting medicated I would drink until I staggered to bed every night. That is EVERY night. I was totally functional, though. Still got up at 5:30 and taught school at one of the best schools in the nation. When my wife finally confronted me about the drinking, I freaked out. The thought of not having it scared the piss out of me. When I was manic, I’d drink to come down so I could sleep. When I was depressed, I drank because, well, I was depressed. In between, I drank to deal with the crazy ass paranoia that I had developed since I was a little kid. I din’t think I could deal with life without the alcohol. I agreed to quit drinking for a month. At the same time I just quit sleeping, went totally manic and finally got diagnosed and put on meds.
I don’t know about everyone that is bipolar, but self-medicating with wine and whiskey masked the bipolar for me.